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Post by wrstdude on Jul 3, 2009 19:04:35 GMT -8
"Or do you still blindly believe everything Marshall tells you?”We are not experts, He is, there would be no basis for us to disagree. I'll remember this when I see you've made a new post...and skip right over it. I know Brett edited my post before, but this is "cult speak". Plain and simple.
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Post by deemax on Jul 3, 2009 19:24:34 GMT -8
I always thought the argument for a muscle getting stronger hindering you made no sense. If you blow up so big that flexibility becomes an issue I understand...... but, who are the examples of guys who got to big and strong for the game?
Get stronger. There is no substitute for strength.
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Post by Brett on Jul 4, 2009 7:59:21 GMT -8
Brett Dude has made a pretty serious charge here about editing his posts. I thought you made a commitment to free speech here. We can't expose the earth is flat crowd unless you let their words come through uncensored. Kharma Kharma, I made a commitment to no nonsense here. In the rules of the board, I state that: 'As long as you don't name call, swear profusely, blatantly personally attack someone, or write something that adds nothing to the topic at hand, you are free to post what you want, when you want, about whatever you want.' Take that as what you will, but if I see something that I deem nonsense on here, I edit it. I am not here to censor ideas, however. If the 'idea' that someone views you and anyone who follows Marshall as 'cultish' is something you want to let fly here, then I will let it fly. No skin off my back...
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Post by Brett on Jul 4, 2009 8:09:47 GMT -8
"Or do you still blindly believe everything Marshall tells you?”We are not experts, He is, there would be no basis for us to disagree. It is somewhat disturbing to see you capitalize 'He' in this sentence. I also think it is interesting that someone who has spent his whole adult life disagreeing with 'experts' (Marshall) would give you no reason to disagree with him (sorry, I meant 'Him'). Blind faith is a scary concept IMO, hence why I have questioned much of what Marshall advocates.
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Post by wrstdude on Jul 4, 2009 8:47:11 GMT -8
"Or do you still blindly believe everything Marshall tells you?”We are not experts, He is, there would be no basis for us to disagree. It is somewhat disturbing to see you capitalize 'He' in this sentence. I also think it is interesting that someone who has spent his whole adult life disagreeing with 'experts' (Marshall) would give you no reason to disagree with him (sorry, I meant 'Him'). Blind faith is a scary concept IMO, hence why I have questioned much of what Marshall advocates. He didn't even address any of the points in either of the studies. He just regurgitated the same ideas that he's been force-fed. He dismissed them because "He" says "nuh-uh". His response wasn't even any different than his previous response before I posted the studies. I question if he even read them... How can there only be one expert on any particular subject/field? That idea itself is one of the most absolutely ridiculous things I've ever heard. I don't understand why anyone would give Marshall the time of day...The dude is Daffy Duck to the max.
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Post by kinexus on Jul 4, 2009 14:26:57 GMT -8
Wrstdude,
?but this is "cult speak". Plain and simple.?
There is nothing that Marshall teaches when he is speaking of kinesiological, exercise physiology or motor skill acquisition that is not in every advanced College text on these subjects, hardly ?Cult speak?. I believe when somebody has little to actually say himself or at an impassable crossroad with past learning (yard or not) they often resort to meaningless catch fraise words like you and many others like to use.
?He didn't even address any of the points in either of the studies.? ?I question if he even read them...?
I read both articles completely, even the 2nd irrelevant article, the first one I read when it first came out and I have read it many time since, The difference is I understand the data. I gave you my opinion on quite a few propositions that they made (1st study) yet you apparently have already gone to your Ostrich (I'll remember this when I see you've made a new post...and skip right over it.) posture strategy when coming upon my posts
When You say ?He? and use a capital letter apparently it means ?DeitHe? to Brett but I would not put me there if I were you?
?He just regurgitated the same ideas that he's been force-fed.?
I went to College completely on my own with no encouragement from anybody and generalizing means you have no actual rebuttal.
?How can there only be one expert on any particular subject/field??
Who said he is not the only one (please quit adding in unsaid information, that is what is one of the most absolutely ridiculous things), there are many College professors teaching the same exact tenets, the same exact tenets that I was taught a long time ago. None of the original discovery on human motor development and energy use has changed and the texts that these learned Gentlemen use have changed little since they were originally published. I would take Kharma?s advice and really read that paper on the main tenet ?Sport Specificity? by Dr.Husner, so that when you accuse someone else of not reading materials that you present you are not just acting the way you are accusing.
?I don't understand why anyone would give Marshall the time of day...The dude is Daffy Duck to the max.?
If you cannot attack the material you might as well attack the man?
Grab that oar next to Deemax in front of the rest and continue rowing with the rest of the non-curious.
Deemax,
?who are the examples of guys who got to big and strong for the game??
Nobody is saying not to get big and strong!!!!!!!! It?s how you do it!
?Get stronger. There is no substitute for strength.?
You are exactly right!! Do it according to scientific exacting exercise physiological tenets and in the case we are arguing about that means ?Sport Specifically?.
Beemax,
?Blind faith is a scary concept IMO, hence why I have questioned much of what Marshall advocates.?
Since there is no reason for you to test Marshall?s claims then ?Blind faith? is a good word for you and others! I on the other hand have thoroughly tested every aspect of Marshall?s claims personally on myself (4 years) them brought it to my clients (12 years) plus I am coming from a physical education background so please do not use these words to describe me or how I perceive Marshall?s materials.
?It is somewhat disturbing to see you capitalize 'He' in this sentence.?
You may have to redact yourself here? Don?t tell us all you are typo intolerant! You are going to have to learn how to control your disturbinisity? Your not calling me a subliminal name here are you? That?s OK I get a chuckle when posters like you have nothing of value to add.
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Post by teacherman on Jul 4, 2009 14:41:15 GMT -8
Please refer me to the textbook or books that says these kinesiological, exercise physiology or motor skill acquisitions....
....are the ones used to swing a bat or throw a ball.
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Post by kinexus on Jul 4, 2009 15:11:49 GMT -8
Teacherman,
This is a good step here on your part; we must all become studentman before we can progress to the next step.
Go to any University in the world’s bookstore and pick up their particular literature because there are way more of these texts that I can give you here and they all say the same thing in regards to Human motor development. Now, once you have learned how to proceed, apply what you have learned to all aspects of baseball game and practice activities to put together the best possible interval-training program. Wha Laa you have it, you can even waste your time doing Cleans or Snatches or truck pulls if you like but don’t have your baseball clients do them!
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Post by teacherman on Jul 4, 2009 15:12:01 GMT -8
Nice try.
That textbook doesn't exist.
Any honesty in your bones?
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Post by cosmo34 on Jul 4, 2009 23:21:00 GMT -8
Cosmo34,
“I absolutely hate it when people say this. It couldn't be further from the truth.”
Oh, it’s true but you will never get to the truth listening to general fitness trainers! I believe covering all 4 (Sport specific, general, Field and ballistic) training tenets is prudent, the problem is the one that is most important is “sport specific” is never implemented!
No it is not true. The whole "hitting a tire with a sledgehammer will only make you better at hitting a tire with a sledgehammer" (or insert any exercise not deemed "sports specific" by some) is completely false and misleading. At the very root of it, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer will not be the same as working on your pitching/hitting mechanics. Nobody has argued otherwise. But to say that it will not help you become a better hitter/pitcher is false and misleading. The strength gained in your grip/wrists/forearms, core, shoulders, etc... will make you a stronger and better fit athlete. It's called carryover.
As the study posted by Kapuna pointed out, there is a very high relation between grip strength and batted ball velocity, or how hard you can hit a baseball. More strength in those areas equals harder hit balls. Ground balls get through the infield quicker, long fly outs become doubles, etc.. The results gained from doing such exercises will help the results on the field, and at the end of the day that's all that matters. There is no such thing as too strong of hands in baseball, and there is no such thing as too strong of a core. Hitting a tire with a sledgehammer (or whichever non "sport specific" exercise you want) will make you a better athlete, and in turn, perform better on the field. We're not in the business of winning science debates, we're in the business of winning games and getting players to perform to the best of their abilities. Doing such exercises will get the players to perform far better.
The carryover effect is real.
The time wasted doing power lifts can be used to do other actually beneficial strength Drills with these same muscle groups, nothing is being lost by eliminating them.
[glow=red,2,300]Which is why you develop programs that entail all facets of strength training. [/glow]
Squats, train you to extend (powerfully but unfortunately slowly) you’re knee vertically while your standing, in baseball this will help you jump up and grab that ball over your head a couple more inches, anything else?
[glow=red,2,300]As I've said repeatedly, bar speed is important. I do not, nor do I encourage players to "powerfully but slowly" perform squats or any exercise. Forcefully, explosively, and in control is what I preach, and it is what works.
Anything else? Speed is one. Endurance is another. Resistance to inury is a third. Lower half strength for more power/velocity is the 4th. Squats build powerful and explosive legs and core, and that is never a bad thing in baseball, or any sport.[/glow]
Squats should never be performed passed 90 degrees for baseball players because that is as far as they ever get plus it puts you at a muscle angularity disadvantage plus mashes you cartilage all over the knee causing recovery scar tissue growths from meniscus and ligament trauma. Now, what would be the best squat type (Sport specific) exercise for a baseball player? I think it would only involve ½ squat to a ballistic jump with wrist weights. Have you ever seen anybody perform these type drills other than Basketball players? They use medicine balls. Just remember the more complex the sport motion the more sport specific the training should be. Throwing and batting are very complex and should be compound strengthened from start to finish using the actual mechanic for proper neural switch timing (proprioceptive awareness).
[glow=red,2,300]What you are saying is that only certain "new science" exercises should be done, and they can be beneficial. But when you leave out the bread and butter, you are leaving performance on the table. That is never a good thing. [/glow]
Now a catcher, they squat but is the act of over catching (bullpens, practice and long games) squatting enough for them? Does the added training of deep knee squats cause more stress than is necessary to be fit for them? From what I have seen the knee is pretty fragile.
[glow=red,2,300]It is fragile, and I speak from experience. See next point.[/glow]
Does any body ever put out the associated risks of injury when talking about their favorite lifts and the actual amount of injuries from general power lifting especially?
[glow=red,2,300]I do, especially when I talk about benching. Strength gained is worthless when you can't apply it because you are injured.[/glow]
The problem here is that you have been exposed to general fitness trainers whom do not either know how to put together a correct Specific interval training regimen or do not care to take it to the next level because it involves much more difficult logistics, apparatus and approaches to get “Sport Specific” with each and every sport. To me they are basically lazy or they missed the opportunity to get it right in their exercise physiology and kinesiology classes in. College or they are just unaware. and I find this to be the case everywhere even with the so called best in their field whom still incorporate Cleans, deep squats and all the rest of the useless to baseball Olympic lifts.
[glow=red,2,300]General fitness trainers can KMA. I am not one of them, nor do I buy into them. I buy into trainers who actually work in athletics, research new ideas, and think for myself. I also bank on my own experiences, which are plentiful. Olympic lifts are anything but useless in athletics. [/glow]
One of my best friends is a professional bowler; he has actually performed in the final at firestone one year. When he was 28 years old his body really looked weird, he had a T-rex looking left arm and a hulk looking right arm, his right leg was scrawny and his left leg was narly, his abs were elongated in their contour from his right peck to his left hip he had the most powerfully pronated spin on the ball and had an incredible average now for 14 years. You should see them try to golf? He starting a general strengthening program from a general fitness trainer friend of his, their goal was to even up his look (muscle balance) so he would perform even better and after about 4 months it was working and he was attaining muscular balance. The problem was his average plummeted for the next year until he lost his pro card. When I would talk to him all he could say was the trainers said I needed balance and to keep training, I told him to go back to the way he lived and trained (Sport specifically) before his difficulty so he did, two years later his game returned and he has kept it that way ever since. His only problem now is he Surfs to the right walks to the left. LOL. Now interject this balanced approach into the throwing or batting motion and it will produce the same affects difference between a “sport specific” training regimen and a general one!!
The best and most under trained aspect of baseball players needs are aggressive protracted field agility workouts to exhaustion every day. The best one I have seen is the Olympic Training Center, field agility routine involving many exaggerated drills.
The best thing a fielder (pitchers are also fielders and subject to the same training) could do to help them is stop running distance and get back to sprints and short dash’s with controlled stops then alignments (where your throwing it).
[glow=red,2,300]Sprints are underdone and endurance is overdone. Agree there. Best speed gains I ever made weren't because I was running 5 miles a day. It was because I was in the weightroom everyday, playing SS on my summer team (something I hadn't done in a long, long time; the agility in games helped with feet quickness) and busting it doing sprints. [/glow]
The best single “Specific” drill (meaning singular muscle group) is the Ulnar flexing pronated bar posterior and anterior radial flexed lifts. Do one set (basically to exhaustion) with a minimum of 24 reps, you may have to use less weight to start, when you can get to 48 reps move up weight a little Take a 16” bar with weight at the opposite end of your grip placement (or a double jack hammer). Hold hand straight down along side your hip thumbs pointed forward. Grab the bar with the weight towards the back and Ulnar flex the weight up to your elbow and to the outside pronating your forearm so now your thumb is down and in. Now turn the bar around and point the weight forward and radial flex the weight up toward your shoulders.
Kinexus, IIRC you preferred something other than bold when I answer in quotes. I gave the red a try.
Edit- color didn't work, so I just bolded my answers.
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Post by cosmo34 on Jul 5, 2009 19:49:37 GMT -8
Randy Johnson is waving hello. And he's waving with his right hand on purpose......
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Post by Brett on Jul 6, 2009 7:44:20 GMT -8
Beemax, ?Blind faith is a scary concept IMO, hence why I have questioned much of what Marshall advocates.?Since there is no reason for you to test Marshall?s claims then ?Blind faith? is a good word for you and others! I on the other hand have thoroughly tested every aspect of Marshall?s claims personally on myself (4 years) them brought it to my clients (12 years) plus I am coming from a physical education background so please do not use these words to describe me or how I perceive Marshall?s materials. Dirt, I am sure you have put in the time studying Marshall's concepts; for the last year and a half I have as well. Along with this I have studied the results from his pitchers, particularly those who use his full windup, and the results have not been good. I am not a pitcher nor a pitching coach so there is little to no need for me to test out this stuff, yet I am very fascinated by it. I do believe that there are certain tenets that Marshall teaches that are beneficial to arm health. However, I am far from buying into the notion that his full delivery will make you a better pitcher. Maybe you are not following with blind faith, but the mindset of: I can't think of another term than blind faith. If you are predisposed to agree with everything he says you are just a robot IMO. Do you ever question his teachings/theories when it comes to pitching? When did I say anything about being typo intolerant? If I was, I would have to correct a large number of your sentences here??? If anything it was a joke in the fact that you referred to Marshall as 'He' by mistake (I hope). I'm also glad you get a chuckle from someone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say.
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Post by Brett on Jul 6, 2009 7:44:51 GMT -8
Brett We can't expose the earth is flat crowd unless you let their words come through uncensored. Kharma When Kharma refers to those who don't buy into the Marshall motion as the 'Earth is flat crowd' I can't help but think of Columbus. When everyone said the Earth was flat, he proved that it was not. When those who don't buy into Marshall say that it has not been proven this way will make you more successful, I don't see the proof otherwise. Do you have any Kharma?
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Post by Brett on Jul 6, 2009 7:49:57 GMT -8
Brett As it concerns my posts I'd prefer that all replies are left unedited. I think that anyone caught lying should be banned. Opinions are not lies. While I find the name calling tiresome in hitting threads I think the Marshall debate is so important that we don't want any charges of censorship especially from the earth is flat crowd. Kharma Is anyone here claiming censorship? I will edit your posts if they do not conform to the rules.
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Post by Brett on Jul 8, 2009 18:31:52 GMT -8
Thread bump to ask Kinexus/Dirtberry/Lon again:
Do you ever question Marshall's teachings/theories when it comes to pitching and/or hitting?
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