The latest events.......

[swingbuilder]

I do own two guns (given to me by my grandfather...a 20 gage double barrel and a 410) and have no plans of removing them from my home (I do not own a single shell nor are the guns in a place that can be gotten by someone else). While I am not a hunter I have hunted for squirrels and dove while I was a young person. Always under the direction of an adult. My father and brother n law have/are serving in the US Military, along with members of my wife's family. I am an educated person and know the role that guns have played in the history of the world and in present world-wide society. I also respect the laws of the United States.

All that being said, I find the outcry about the tragedy in Connecticut being related to guns to be so ignorant and emotionally biased as to be offensive. First, Americans don't realize what goes on in the rest of the world. There is, or has been in the past few generations, wholesale genocide all over Europe and Africa. Mexico is the most violent country in the world without exception or arguement...how many innocent children have been killed within 30 miles of the US border in the last 2-3 years?! There is constant civil war in the false name of religion all over the Arab World (no one bats an eye when a bomb kills 15 kids on a school bus in Afghanistan or Syria). Asia is rife with child slavery, whether it be for labor or sex. There are lots of evil people in the world! To expect this country not to have some of those people is intellectually dishonest. But there is a large part of our society that is perfectly willing to throw up their arms in astonishment at our own cultural depravity without a clue what happens in the rest of the world.

The evil person in this equation isn't actually the 20 year old Asperger's kid who shot the gun, it's the parents, especially the mother, that were educated people who allowed an obviously mentally unstable person to have access to guns and to actually teach him how to use them.

Responsibility starts with parents and adults. In the rest of the world all the problems that I referenced above are caused by adults. But who are the individuals who perpetrate all the crimes in this country that everyone reacts so emotionally to? Kids. Whether it is a mall shooting or a movie theater shooting or a school shooting, they all seem to be done by 18-22 year olds. Or near that age. There have been states that have had both a mall and a school shooting in the last 10 years.... by "kids" without parental direction. It just happens more and more around the country. We are afraid of terrorists and politicians and what we should be afraid of are parents who don't take responsibility for their children.

Sorry to vent. But I have been bothered by this situation and the innocent people around the world who have been the targets of irresponsibility and evil!!!

[pstein]

I nominate this for the post of the year.

I don't own a gun, and I haven't been around them. I've been around other dangerous things. (chemicals and the like) If you handle it safely and responsibly... then you're fine. If you respect its power, you're fine. If you teach others to do so, you're going to end up helping everyone.

I'm probably part of this generation, but who knows. From what I've spent time reading, (in books, newspapers, and everything) parents used to parent. I'm not impugning anyone here. Parents are now friends. IMO, that's not acceptable. I look up to my father and grandfather. If they tell me not to do something, I don't do it.

Bill O'Reilly had an excellent segment a few nights ago about parents now making excuses for their children. He's right, and I'll give you an example. I go to a high school in one of the wealthier counties in the country. I know people who do things they shouldn't. I try not to associate with them. More often than not, they get caught. The parents end up making a fuss with the school over the "he's not a bad kid, blah blah blah."

Fact is, that kid made the choice to go smoke pot or whatever. It's his problem. The parents shouldn't be involved beyond contacting the school to figure out what the punishment will be. We don't allow people to take accountability in our society anymore. I think it's more important now than it ever was before to allow people to do so.

JMO, mind you.

[Brett]

SB,

I agree with some of this. Let me try to break it down.

I think you are spot on with the responsibility of parents to take care of their children. I believe that the specific acts of violence we have seen recently could have all been prevented with parents who made an effort to take care of their kids.

In particular, the mother of the shooter in the Oregon Mall shooting had been out of contact with her son for 4 years. Why? Who was looking after him?

In the same breath that I believe those who are not educated on the issues they vote on should not be able to vote, those who are not responsible enough to have kids should not have kids. But we all know that will never happen.

Now, as far as the rest of the world is concerned...I think the idea that all Americans do not realize what goes on around the world is short sided.

There are many people that have a great perspective of what goes on and has transpired across the world. Having been lucky enough to travel myself and mingle with many different faiths, races, etc, I have gained a much greater understanding and perspective of things. That perspective I have gained has taught me I still have a ton to learn.

My view is this; just because we are lucky enough to live in a country where millions are not killed for their faith, and we have laws to protect our young ones from facing the horrors that go on elsewhere, does not mean we cannot do something in an effort to stop this from happening again.

At the end of the day we live in the most privileged society in the world...but that doesn't mean we can't make it better.

When it comes to gun laws...I see no use for any civilian to have access to this:



This was one of the weapons used in Aurora. Adam Lanza apparently had something very similar as well to go with two handguns.

I work with someone in Alaska who recently purchased an AK-47. I think many can recall where they have seen this:



Again, I see no reason why a civilian should be allowed access to a firearm like this.

I have a friend who is a Police Officer who recently purchased an M-16:



I asked him what use he had for it, as he already has a handgun. His response:

'It will be fun to shoot.'

He's a responsible gun owner, but that reasoning it totally unacceptable to me. Again, I see no reason that a civilian should have access to a weapon like that.

I am not out to abolish the second amendment. If you want to have a handgun to feel safer and a hunting rifle for your trips to get a trophy buck, I have no issue with that.

I do have issue with people being able to purchase semi-automatic assault rifles, tear gas, and the like.

While I know it will not prevent these tragedies from happening, I think it is a step in a more sane, and right, direction.

I also believe that background checks need to be extensive when purchasing any firearm and there should be limits to how many you can own.

I've also heard people say that more security is needed...that we need an off duty police officer at every school in the country. That we need someone who is armed on campus at all times.

I think if a community wants to hire an off-duty officer to work on campus, go for it. I don't think that the answer to preventing gun violence is more firearms, but many gun sellers are seeing record sales in the wake of these shootings...

I heard today that when you look at it from a national perspective, it is easier to purchase a firearm than get mental health care in America. There is something very wrong with that...which leads me into my final, and most important point:

America needs to place a much higher emphasis on Mental Health as a whole. I believe there is a stigma associated with the idea that a seemingly normal, healthy individual would seek out a mental health professional. That thinking trickles down to those that greatly need mental health help.

I don't think we will find much argument here that the perpetrators of any of these awful acts had severe mental health issues. My question to put out to those of you here is: if a mental health checkup was as easy for anyone as say, a dental cleaning, do you think that we would be better off for it? Do you think that would have the greatest effect in a positive manner?

I think if we spend more money and resources properly treating people's mental health we will end up saving a ton on the back end with the prevention of more crime and the exponential effects of said crimes.

It is not an issue that can be fixed with one thing.

[swingbuilder]

By and large Americans are blind or choose to be blind about what goes on around the world.

We weep for these children yet we stand by and watch as children are used for sex and slavery.

Ms Lanza was getting 289 grand a year for alimony. She knew her child was a rainman child.

That parent had no business showing him how to use a gun nor any business allowing him to have access to a gun.

Parents need to be parents!!!!!

[Brett]

Dec 18, 2012 6:02:44 GMT -8 swingbuilder said:

By and large Americans are blind or choose to be blind about what goes on around the world.

We weep for these children yet we stand by and watch as children are used for sex and slavery.

There are many in America on both sides (worldly view versus blind).

We weep for these children because it happened in our backyard. In a community many of us could see ourselves in.

We weep because we know we live in a country where things like this shouldn't happen. We live in a country where we can actually have an impact on preventing these things.

Do you weep daily for those being used around the world for sex slavery? For the millions killed in the holocaust? For the atrocities in Darfur?

There are so many awful things that go on in the world if you really took the time to weep for everyone you would not have the capacity to deal with it.

If you think we are standing by as sex slavery goes on abroad, do something about it. If you want to put focus on the other horrible things in the world, be my guest. Go abroad and try to make a difference. That is a very noble thing to do. Just don't try to marginalize the murder of 20 children by saying 'there are worse things going on.'

Should we be ashamed that we weep for 20 children and the adults that died while working for them?

Ms Lanza was getting 289 grand a year for alimony. She knew her child was a rainman child.

That parent had no business showing him how to use a gun nor any business allowing him to have access to a gun.

Parents need to be parents!!!!!

Totally agree.

Now, do you feel that mental health in this country should be focused on more? That it should be more readily available to the masses?

Do you feel that civilians should have the right to purchase M-16's, AK-47's and other semi-automatic assault rifles?

[mudvnine]

Very interesting posts gentlemen.

Pstein, you continue to amaze me with your wisdom well beyond your years. This is so spot on.....

I'm probably part of this generation, but who knows. From what I've spent time reading, (in books, newspapers, and everything) parents used to parent. I'm not impugning anyone here. Parents are now friends. IMO, that's not acceptable. I look up to my father and grandfather. If they tell me not to do something, I don't do it.

....parents now making excuses for their children. More often than not, they get caught. The parents end up making a fuss with the school over the "he's not a bad kid, blah blah blah."

Fact is, that kid made the choice to go smoke pot or whatever. It's his problem. The parents shouldn't be involved beyond contacting the school to figure out what the punishment will be.

.....with so many of our youth problems we're seeing nowadays.

And when did children become "equal", that they are allowed to address an adult by the adult's first name, instead of "Mr.", "Mrs.", or "Ms."? This new era of everybody's "equal" is literally killing us.....

When those that don't feel "equal", attempt to use any means they see fit in their distorted mind to level the playing field, or even to the extent to give them a feeling of superiority that problems arise......unfortunately, many times that means arming themselves above and beyond what most they will encounter in their twisted path, belief, or attempt at redemption.

Is at any wonder that almost all fit the 17-22 year old, above average intelligence, single white male, who was an "outsider", "loner", "outcast", or who had what others called a "personality disorder" description?

When I talked with my 17 y/o son wrt his thoughts on the ever increasing number of "young men shooters", his first response was, "bullying at school".

Unfortunately, what doesn't make the front page of the daily news, is the shockingly increasing number of youth suicides over that last 10 years, many times attributed to the continued bullying outside of school through social media. One young man from my son's school took his life earlier this year, and the school and local media, did everything they could to cover up the fact that he hung himself in his garage.

Why, who or what were they shielding by not releasing that this was a troubled young man who thought that taking his own life was the best and only option he had?

Look at how all of these "young men shooters" end their episodes, does anyone remember one where the shooter didn't take his own life at the conclusion of his outburst?

Yes, we can try to place blame on the parents, on the mental health system, on gun control, on school security, but ultimately it boils down to the fact that when kids don't feel to be part of any group, or recognized for their positive or good traits; they soon start believing that the only way to have people recognize or acknowledge their existence is to make one last attempt at the ultimate form of attention. Death, either theirs or for even greater attention/recognition, that of others before their own.

This might sound callous, but if the news media would not put 24/7 coverage of all of these shootings, we may just start to see a reduction in them. Look at how much attention/recognition Adam Lanza is receiving, or that that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold got.....what about James Holmes (I guess there's one who didn't kill himself in the end), or Seung-Hui Cho, or even as far back as 1966 and Charles Whitman making the front cover of Time Magazine.



What are we programming into the minds of potential future shooters? Want to go out with a bang (no pun intended), have your name plastered all over the press, and make sure that everyone finally recognizes you?......take out a dozen or more innocent people before killing yourself, and you'll be the talk of the nation for weeks on end.

That will teach 'em for ignoring or even worse bullying you during your formidable years of life. Finally people will realize what you were really capable of, even if it is in evil instead of good.....at least you'll finally get the recognition that you longed for.

SB, we are a "front page", "headline news" driven society. The reason most don't care or know of the atrocities you mention, is that they're written in the "World" section in the back of the newspaper, or televised on the "World News With Whoever", when many/most are not willing to read or watch what's happening outside of their own back yard, and have already picked up the comics, or tuned into some syndicated rerun.

Hell, for the last several days following the Newtown shooting, what was the majority of reports on the "World News" shows? Yep, that of the S.H.E.S. shooting, and all of the investigations/coverage of the shooter, his victims, politicians, or simply trying to make any sort of sense out of it all.

Adam's getting just what he wanted.......even in death, he's finally getting recognition. Even if it's at the price of so many others.

My heart and prayers go out to all those effected by a sad individual's destructive cry for attention.

[pstein]

Mud,

Pstein, you continue to amaze me with your wisdom well beyond your years.

Thank you, now only if I can amaze 10 or so college admissions officers. ;D

And when did children become "equal", that they are allowed to address an adult by the adult's first name, instead of "Mr.", "Mrs.", or "Ms."? This new era of everybody's "equal" is literally killing us.....

Don't get me started on affirmative action. That's really what started it, IMO. Everyone isn't equal. I address people superior to me (in age or position) by a formal title. Not "Bob" or "Joe", but "Mr. Name" or "Sir".

When those that don't feel "equal", attempt to use any means they see fit in their distorted mind to level the playing field, or even to the extent to give them a feeling of superiority that problems arise......unfortunately, many times that means arming themselves above and beyond what most they will encounter in their twisted path, belief, or attempt at redemption.

Bullying is a huge problem. It's always been a problem, but I feel as though people were taught to stand up for themselves years ago. Now instead of dealing with the problem, it becomes time to run to an authority figure. Yes, that's a fine course... after you've stood up for yourself.

[swingbuilder]

Dec 18, 2012 8:22:17 GMT -8 Brett said:

Dec 18, 2012 6:02:44 GMT -8 swingbuilder said:

By and large Americans are blind or choose to be blind about what goes on around the world.

We weep for these children yet we stand by and watch as children are used for sex and slavery.

There are many in America on both sides (worldly view versus blind).

We weep for these children because it happened in our backyard. In a community many of us could see ourselves in.

We weep because we know we live in a country where things like this shouldn't happen. We live in a country where we can actually have an impact on preventing these things.

Do you weep daily for those being used around the world for sex slavery? For the millions killed in the holocaust? For the atrocities in Darfur?

There are so many awful things that go on in the world if you really took the time to weep for everyone you would not have the capacity to deal with it.

If you think we are standing by as sex slavery goes on abroad, do something about it. If you want to put focus on the other horrible things in the world, be my guest. Go abroad and try to make a difference. That is a very noble thing to do. Just don't try to marginalize the murder of 20 children by saying 'there are worse things going on.'

Should we be ashamed that we weep for 20 children and the adults that died while working for them?

Ms Lanza was getting 289 grand a year for alimony. She knew her child was a rainman child.

That parent had no business showing him how to use a gun nor any business allowing him to have access to a gun.

Parents need to be parents!!!!!

Totally agree.

Now, do you feel that mental health in this country should be focused on more? That it should be more readily available to the masses?

Do you feel that civilians should have the right to purchase M-16's, AK-47's and other semi-automatic assault rifles?

Brett you are an idiot. It is tragic what happened to those children and to all children. My post reflects that. But the issue is the adult-the parent making sorry ass dumb choices.

2 days ago.....Dad in Texas gets in a wreck with his 4 year old in car. The 4 year old is DEAD!!!! The dad was drunk!!!! and alive!!!!

The outcry over guns is offensive. While I agree no one needs an assault rifle...rainman didn't take that into the building. But, the adult gave a "Rainman" access to the guns and taught him how to use them.

That IS the issue. Parents!!!!!!!!

[Brett]

SB,

If you want to get into name calling I will take it as my points are too valid for you to adequately argue. You talk about being a parent and an adult. Act like one.

I have yet to disagree with you on the fact that parents need to do a much better job. How do you suggest we go about doing it?

You're on your soap box...do you have a solution or are you just going to talk about the problem?

You now have addressed what I have said about assault rifles...what about mental health? Do you feel the status quo is acceptable when it comes to it in this country?

Lanza used an assault rifle to get into the school:

Earlier this year, the school principal, Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, ordered a new security system installed that required visitors to be visibly identified and buzzed in. As part of the security system, the school locked its doors each day at 9:30 a.m.

The door was locked when the gunman arrived.

Authorities now know the gunman used "an assault weapon" to "literally (shoot) an entrance into the building," Connecticut Gov. Dannel Malloy said.

You seem to want to scream about the issue...and that's not a bad thing. But what is your suggestion for a solution?

[Brett]

Mud,

A lot of good points...especially about the 24/7 News Media cycle we live in. You are exactly right with the shooters getting the attention they want.

[mudvnine]

Dec 18, 2012 17:52:03 GMT -8 Brett said:

...what about mental health? Do you feel the status quo is acceptable when it comes to it in this country?

Brett,

Unfortunately, like any a illness, mental illness comes in so many varying degrees of severity, and many times hidden from even the patient until a demonstrative sign or symptom appears just too late for adequate treatment or therapy.

While there are times like in the most recent episode where others described Lanza as having a "personality disorder", there are an equal number of shooting incidents where others said, "he was such a nice person, I never thought so-and-so would ever be capable of such a thing".

So while I believe the system does a decent job with those who seek or are directed to help, I don't believe that there is a mechanism (or one that can be sensible put) in place that would or could prevent what happened last Friday.

While there's nothing wrong with thinking we can do something to prevent such sickness and tragedy in the future, but in all reality, all we can do is live life to the fullest everyday. Making sure that we tell our kids, family, and friends how much we love them and how much they mean to us in our lives, and never go to bed angry, or leave a loved one with unresolved issues......as one never knows what tomorrow or events later in the day might bring.

As far a guns, I probably have more than I should, or really need, but I too believe that "assault" style weapons are not something that civilians need, but are probably what would be the weapons of choice if we are to abide by the definition of owning firearms as protected by the 2nd Amendment....."A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

What better weapon for a "well regulated militia" than an assault-type rifle to rise up against a tyrannical government, or supplement a newly formed military against a foreign invasion, as was the original purpose of the Amendment so many years ago.

Unless we're willing to change the 2nd Amendment (which I'm not willing to do), I don't know how anyone thinks we can regulate an instrument just because it has evolved over the years.

Now to bring your two questions/points together, look at the Army psychiatrist who took a single semi-automatic hand gun, and killed 13 and wounded 29 others at Fort Hood, a presumably "well armed" facility.

Who should have been responsible for determining the psychiatrist's mental health, and how would banning assault rifles have changed anything, when he used a simple, single hand gun against others....some of whom should/could have been armed themselves?

[swingbuilder]

The solution.

Be a parent to your children and not a best friend! Take the responsibility for them and keep them from things they are not capable or responsible for dealing with.

The issue isn't the gun. The conversation shouldn't be about the gun. It should be about irresponsible people (dangerous people).

He should have never been taught how to shoot and he should have never had access to a gun or guns much less a loaded gun and ammunition.

And while I'm at it...we, in this country, attempt to mainstream all handicapped children into the mainstream of education. Because that is whats BEST for that ONE CHILD.....well did anyone ever think what was BEST for the other 500 to 3000 kids in the school when that one child got mainstreamed in!!!!

Based on the type of handicap...and in this case a "Rainman" savant...the safety of every child at that school, the child is mainstreamed into, is in jepardy.

Now lets move on to "huts" or structures/ classrooms not within the building construction. Are they safe? Not one bit!!! They are separate from the school building and are behind most schools and anyone at anytime can approach and enter that set apart structure without anyone knowing it....is that teacher safe in that setting? Those kids? You better believe they aren't.

The problem with the world we live in is that it caters to a few and the majority are at risk because of that.

PS..my post was posted as an adult. My response was as an adult when you tried to rope me into taking away from children being murdered. It is tragic and why I posted my initial remarks to begin with.

[Brett]

Dec 19, 2012 8:51:49 GMT -8 swingbuilder said:

Be a parent to your children and not a best friend! Take the responsibility for them and keep them from things they are not capable or responsible for dealing with.

No argument there at all.

The issue isn't the gun. The conversation shouldn't be about the gun. It should be about irresponsible people (dangerous people).

I think irresponsible people are a huge issue, but I also believe that gun laws need to be discussed. I believed it before Sandy Hook and if this is the moment that creates the change I believe we need, then so be it.

He should have never been taught how to shoot and he should have never had access to a gun or guns much less a loaded gun and ammunition.

Agree 100%

And while I'm at it...we, in this country, attempt to mainstream all handicapped children into the mainstream of education. Because that is whats BEST for that ONE CHILD.....well did anyone ever think what was BEST for the other 500 to 3000 kids in the school when that one child got mainstreamed in!!!!

Based on the type of handicap...and in this case a "Rainman" savant...the safety of every child at that school, the child is mainstreamed into, is in jepardy.

Not sure I agree with this. One thing I definitely don't agree with is your insistence on referring to anyone with Aspergers as 'Rainman,' whether the person killed 27 people or if it was a friend's kid.

Ignorance to people with Autism and Aspergers does not help the issue.

Now lets move on to "huts" or structures/ classrooms not within the building construction. Are they safe? Not one bit!!! They are separate from the school building and are behind most schools and anyone at anytime can approach and enter that set apart structure without anyone knowing it....is that teacher safe in that setting? Those kids? You better believe they aren't.

The problem with the world we live in is that it caters to a few and the majority are at risk because of that.

The safety issue is valid, although the structures outside of the school building did not apply in Sandy Hook.

What is your solution to your view that the world we live in caters to a few? How do we better approach that?

PS..my post was posted as an adult. My response was as an adult when you tried to rope me into taking away from children being murdered. It is tragic and why I posted my initial remarks to begin with.

I didn't rope, nor did I need to. We were having a conversation. You have your opinions and I have mine. Calling someone an idiot does nothing to further the conversation.

I enjoy the back and forth, hearing others opinions because I feel this is a conversation that needs to be had. It is a conversation that needs to be had here and elsewhere. We all need to become better informed and better educated in hopes that the overriding message gets out there.

[HYP]

Dec 17, 2012 18:57:32 GMT -8 pstein said:

I nominate this for the post of the year.

I don't own a gun, and I haven't been around them. I've been around other dangerous things. (chemicals and the like) If you handle it safely and responsibly... then you're fine. If you respect its power, you're fine. If you teach others to do so, you're going to end up helping everyone.

I'm probably part of this generation, but who knows. From what I've spent time reading, (in books, newspapers, and everything) parents used to parent. I'm not impugning anyone here. Parents are now friends. IMO, that's not acceptable. I look up to my father and grandfather. If they tell me not to do something, I don't do it.

Bill O'Reilly had an excellent segment a few nights ago about parents now making excuses for their children. He's right, and I'll give you an example. I go to a high school in one of the wealthier counties in the country. I know people who do things they shouldn't. I try not to associate with them. More often than not, they get caught. The parents end up making a fuss with the school over the "he's not a bad kid, blah blah blah."

Fact is, that kid made the choice to go smoke pot or whatever. It's his problem. The parents shouldn't be involved beyond contacting the school to figure out what the punishment will be. We don't allow people to take accountability in our society anymore. I think it's more important now than it ever was before to allow people to do so.

JMO, mind you.

Our society has lost sight of where we came from. Also, everyone is afraid of being sued.

We can basically teach everything in our schools except what our country was founded on. One Nation under GOD.

Quick example and story. We unfortunately had a graduated football player die in a motorcycle accident the year after he graduated. To honor this player they had erected a small cross on the hill behind the end zone. It was going to stay for one game. Someone complained that it offended them because of their beliefs. The school district made them take it down immediately because of fear of a law suit. My problem is, they put the beliefs of someone else over the belief of those who put together the tribute.

Where do you draw the line. Our country was founded on certain beliefs. We took those beliefs away and no longer allow them to be prevalent in our society because we do not want to offend and face a law suit but by doing so offends me along with others.

I saw a t shirt that read.

God,
why did you allow such a tragedy to happen in a school.

signed, a young student

Young student,
I am so sorry but I am not allowed in school.

signed God.

We need to get back to our roots as a society.

My soap box, rant and 2 cents

[swingbuilder]

Not sure I agree with this. One thing I definitely don't agree with is your insistence on referring to anyone with Aspergers as 'Rainman,' whether the person killed 27 people or if it was a friend's kid.

Ignorance to people with Autism and Aspergers does not help the issue.

Its not ignorance....its reality. There are varying levels of Autism. Aspergers would be similar to what you saw "Dustin Hoffman" act out on the movie Rainman.

One day you may have a child and one day that child may go to school and one day you may go to pick that child up from school and enter the building to find two school "TRAINED" personnel wrestling a "mainstreamed student" on the floor and losing the wrestling match with vulgar obsenities being screamed and then you'll then understand that we cater to a few at the expense of the many....

Every issue is different and should be handled and decided on that way but to try to do right for one instead of whats right for the many kids in the school presents safety issues.

Again a few people making dangerous choices for ALL the people.

Your experiences will grow and your perspective will change.