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Post by scorekeeper on Jul 24, 2009 16:42:08 GMT -8
… I asked DR MM how he would reco teaching kids how to field field grounders at 3rd base. He told me that the first thing to teach them is to get out of the way of the ball. In other words field the ball to the side. I'm sure that one would go over well on the youth fields of today. Sorry to swipe this from another thread Kharma, but I don’t want to be accused of just jumping into a thread and rambling on. I figger if I start the thread, everyone will be forewarned.  I haven’t communicated with Doc for some time, but perhaps you can discuss this with him and get an answer. Depending on the level, personally I don’t have a problem if a player wants to play the ball from the side because I know some players get a better sense of depth perception that way rather than straight on. If I’m a coach and an IF can make the plays, why should I generally care? However, a lot of that depends on the quality of the playing surface, and that’s where staying in front of the ball just might bail a player out. Except for the really superiorly maintained fields, a ball can do some serious tricks inside the OF grass. |
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Post by scorekeeper on Jul 26, 2009 8:36:55 GMT -8
Dr Marshall was an All star SS as you know. He told us that in his day guys did not fiield ground balls head on. So it's not all about safety. I’m not sure why you mentioned safety. When I said what I did about the quality of playing surfaces, the last thing I was thinking about was safety. From purely a baseball standpoint, fielding on a ML quality field is a heck of a lot easier than on many amateur fields because more of the bounces are true. Fielding a grounder straight on on a not-so-well-maintained field will sometimes give a goofy hop a backstop so a fielder gets a 2nd chance. Fielding balls from the side doesn’t offer that same 2nd chance opportunity. If you’re talking about safety here and thinking about a kid getting a busted bone in the face or getting his teeth knocked out by an over-exuberant coach or dad, I suppose you have a point. But here we go again with definitions. How should infield practice be done? I’ve seen coaches hit everything from what I’d describe as lollipops, to balls seemingly having escape velocity. To be sure, most are “well” or “solidly” hit, but what’s the right way to do it? After all, a solidly hit ball out of one’s hands with a bat speed of say 30MPH will only produce a ball traveling at 30MPH, no matter what kind of bat is used. So is 30MPH the right velocity, or is it something else. |
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Post by Brett on Jul 26, 2009 11:30:10 GMT -8
the best way for pros to field ground balls does not interest me much. Dr Marshall was a ss so a bad hop most likely meant the batter was safe whether he got in front or not. Why does what the pros do not interest you? Do they not field ground balls the correct way? In your example, what if there is a runner on second with two outs? Whether or not he gets in front of the ball and/or knocks it down could mean the difference between a run scoring on the play or not. The notion that not getting in front of the ball is not a big deal is wrong IMO. |
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Post by Brett on Jul 26, 2009 11:37:18 GMT -8
As for youth baseball with all the macho tough guys out there coaching you are not going to get away with telling your son to field from the side. Therefore I try as much as possible to get coaches to hit soft grounderd to kids up to at least 14. The notion that you hit them hard in practice to make it easier in games should get coaches put in front of a firing squad. Really? A firing squad? Firing ground balls or bullets?  |
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Post by scorekeeper on Jul 26, 2009 12:22:23 GMT -8
Why does what the pros do not interest you? Do they not field ground balls the correct way? I think I understand what you’re both saying, and to tell the truth, if I had to come down on one side or the other, I’d come down on the side of not trying to get kids to emulate what professional baseball players are doing. Its not that they don’t do it correctly, because obviously they do. But because they do it correctly given the environment they’re in. Coaches, parents, and players should learn that most of the time what takes place on a professional field isn’t translatable to a youth field for a variety of reasons. FI, I heard this story from a teammate of Omar Vizquel’s back in his Seattle days. Evidently there was a rash of youth players in the Seattle area trying to emulate Omar with all the barehanded grabs, and other slick things only he could do. To help out the coaches in the area, Omar made a public service ad, specifically telling the kids not to try to play shortstop the way he did until they had the vast experience he had, and to just listen to their coaches. What’s funny is, when he got to Cleveland, virtually the same thing happened, and it happened again in the Bay Area when he went to the Giants. I think its unfortunate that kids don’t have the opportunity to watch the levels closer above them to get an idea about what they should try to emulate, than the ML. FI, LL kids should watch a lot of HS players, and HS kids should watch college players. |
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Post by Brett on Jul 26, 2009 12:47:24 GMT -8
I think I understand what you’re both saying, and to tell the truth, if I had to come down on one side or the other, I’d come down on the side of not trying to get kids to emulate what professional baseball players are doing. This is something I would never, ever advocate. I hope and pray that kids who play ss try to emulate Omar. I'm not talking about a play that he would make maybe once a week, but how he makes the routine play...a play he has to make several times a game. He's the best, and I don't see any real disadvantage to emulating him. Is there some rule that says a HS kid can't watch a college game? Or that a LL player can't watch a HS game? What are you talking about? For someone who enjoys going into the semantics and statistics of everything, you sure don't seem to have much evidence that what you said is even remotely accurate. That being said, I think all should watch big leaguers and emulate them. Emulating players from lower levels than MLB is something I would rarely advocate. |
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Post by scorekeeper on Jul 26, 2009 14:24:41 GMT -8
This is something I would never, ever advocate. A lot of it comes from one’s perspective. In general trying to emulate MLB players is ok, but when you do that you need to guard against the things you don’t want them to emulate. Evidently you never had the pleasure of watching him play every day and in pre-game prep. Trust me, the barehanded grabs, the throws behind the back, the rolling somersaults, and all the other circus things he did, took place more than once a week. The reason he could execute them was because he actually practiced the those plays! I haven’t seen very many college and below players who could afford not to spend time perfecting the routine plays, and I think that’s where the troubles came from. Kids playing 1st, 2nd and 3rd would try that stuff too, when what they should have been doing was working on making the most routine of plays. But, its like a batter hitting home runs and a pitcher getting lots of K’s puts butts in the seats and gets people screamin’ your name, so does making web gems every single game. Absolutely not, but how many do? There are a few dads around here who get their little ones to HS games, but believe me, its difficult because of the time they’re played. The same thing happens for HS kids watching college games. Both of their seasons take place at the same time of the year, and usually at the same time of the day. What ends up happening is, its much easier to see a ML game on TV than to get to watch more than 1 or 2 of the HS or college games. OK, let’s try this. How many grade school baseball players can get to a 3:15 HS game, and how many HS players can get to a 3:00 college game? That sir is evidence because no one can be in 2 places at the same time! Are there some GS players who get to watch HS games or some HS players who get to watch college games? Absolutely. But its not as simple as you seem to believe. I haven’t missed a regular season HS game in the last 3 years our team played in, and I can tell you with absolute certainty, if there have been more than a few GS players at any of our games, I sure didn’t see them. When my son was playing HS ball, I didn’t miss a game for 4 years, and the same thing was true then. When he played in college, I attended over 100 straight games, and it was darn strange to seen more than a dozen parents at the games, let alone HS players who were likely either practicing or playing at the same time. And you’re certainly entitled to that opinion. But I know that in my personal experience, when people encourage kids to look and act like ML players, the next thing that happens is, they start comparing those kids to those ML players, and that doesn’t usually work out very well because the kids can never, ever compare favorably. |
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Post by imagine44 on Jul 26, 2009 18:54:56 GMT -8
SK How slow is slow. I do not know. I encourage coaches to go out and take some grounders. The speed is right when it allows the player to work on technique. Then it can be mixed up some. |
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Post by Brett on Jul 26, 2009 20:13:33 GMT -8
Evidently you never had the pleasure of watching him play every day and in pre-game prep. Did you have the pleasure of watching him every day? I thought you have been scorekeeping every HS game for the past 3 years. If that is true, then I know you didn't see him every day. I've seen him play and practice, and I would advocate his mechanics when fielding a ground ball to anyone. It's like when I played with Dustin Pedroia in summer ball when we were in high school. I asked him one day how he got so good with the glove, and he told me: 'It's because I learned how to field a ground ball the right way by watching Ozzie Smith's video when I was 9 years old.' That always stuck with me. Baloney. College teams play 3/4 of their games on Friday-Sunday 3 game sets. The only HS games I ever played on the weekend were either in a tournament or in the playoffs. It is easy for a kid in your area to go over and watch Sac State, UCD, or Cal on a Saturday or Sunday. Refer to my points above. I never said it was simple, but it's not like there is an iron curtain preventing them from going to a HS or college game. So should they try to look and act like kids so a scout can see nothing to project? Why is it such a big deal to emulate MLB players? You make it out to be an epidemic when that is far from the truth. |
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Post by cosmo34 on Jul 26, 2009 21:10:03 GMT -8
To anyone who says you shouldn't emulate big leaguers- would you rather emulate the guy sitting next you in a cubicle, or the boss who makes 6 figures.
Don't emulate your peers. Emulate those above you, and those you strive to be. Nobody ever got anywhere because they said "I want to be as good as my buddy Al." They said, "I want to be as good as Albert Pujols".
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Post by scorekeeper on Aug 2, 2009 13:41:35 GMT -8
Did you have the pleasure of watching him every day? I thought you have been scorekeeping every HS game for the past 3 years. If that is true, then I know you didn't see him every day. I got to see him play ever day, or rather almost every day DirecTv or MLB.com had Indian’s game on. Plus, I’ve received tapes or every STO during the baseball season, as well as every other TV show about the Tribe. I’ve been retired since 1980, so I’ve had plenty of time to watch plenty of games, and I’ll bet large sums I got to see Omar practice and take pre-game more than you. How interesting. Since Dustin played for the coach I score for In HS, and his dad shows up every time we play his old team and we’ve shared more than 1 beer, I’ll ask him abou that. And the next time I talk to Dustin, I’ll ask him too. College teams play ¾ of their games on Fri-Sun 3 game sets? Talk about baloney! And I never said it was impossible. You make it out that its just a hop-skip-and-a-jump over to the local college game, and that’s crap! Even with all the JUCOS and the local 4 years schools here, the kids simply can’t get to the games as easily as you seem to think. NO! But they don’t have to play the field like Omar to have scouts look at them and project! That’s what project means! All they have to do is their best! And while I don’t know it was an “epidemic”, certainly you don’t know that it wasn’t. |
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Post by scorekeeper on Aug 2, 2009 13:55:35 GMT -8
To anyone who says you shouldn't emulate big leaguers- would you rather emulate the guy sitting next you in a cubicle, or the boss who makes 6 figures. Don't emulate your peers. Emulate those above you, and those you strive to be. Nobody ever got anywhere because they said "I want to be as good as my buddy Al." They said, "I want to be as good as Albert Pujols". That’s exactly the kind of thinking that caused so many kids to start juicing! After all, since the ML’rs were doing it, it had to be a good thing! How much fun is it to see kids adjusting and re-adjusting their Sensible batting gloves like Mike Hargrove, and dragging the game on? The trouble with kids emulating MLB players is, the guys they’re emulating are full grown adults making more money than most kids could ever imagine and living a lifestyle that's inconcievable. You can’t say only emulate the way they field routine grounders because kids can’t turn it off or on like it was a switch. I suppose if a kid beats up his girlfriend, carries a gun, juices up, or gets caught with a K of grass, its ok if his excuse is his heroes were doing it, and he was just emulating them. |
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Post by cosmo34 on Aug 2, 2009 16:52:05 GMT -8
You really are something else.
That post was so full of ridiculous I don't know where to begin. Nothing you just said has anything to do with emulating the best's on field play. Just more rambling about nothing.
"I suppose if a kid beats up his girlfriend, carries a gun, juices up, or gets caught with a K of grass, its ok if his excuse is his heroes were doing it, and he was just emulating them. "
Honestly, what does that have to do with the topic at hand?
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Post by cosmo34 on Aug 2, 2009 16:58:54 GMT -8
"College teams play ¾ of their games on Fri-Sun 3 game sets? Talk about baloney!"
Miami played 40 out of 55 games on Fri-Sun sets. That's 72.7% of their games. Pretty much 3/4.
How does that baloney taste?
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Post by scorekeeper on Aug 2, 2009 18:04:03 GMT -8
You really are something else. That post was so full of ridiculous I don't know where to begin. Nothing you just said has anything to do with emulating the best's on field play. Just more rambling about nothing. Honestly, what does that have to do with the topic at hand? What’s it have to do with the topic at hand? It is the topic at hand! You want kids to emulate MLB players, and I think there’s more to it than that, so one must be careful. How about being out to dinner with your family and seeing one of the premiere players in the game sitting at the next table, and sending your son over to get a graciously given autograph. Then later during dinner, that same player goes off on a tirade about an dirty expletive official scorer who cheated him out of a expletive base hit that cheated him out of .003 expletive, expletive points on his BA, and has his mom and dad agreeing with him! That’s the danger of emulating ML players! You and I may take everything into consideration, but little kids often can’t, so you don’t just get the hustle and technique displayed, you get the warts too! It tastes like out of desperation you found a school out of thousands that matched what you wanted to prove. But, even if you found that they all played all their games when HS players could get out there to watch, how many would do it? Some would to be sure, but not the kind of numbers that would make much of a difference. The fact would still remain exactly what I said. It would be easier to watch a ML game on TV than going to a college or a HS game. It wasn’t like that when I was a kid because there were only at most a few games a week on TV. Lots on the radio, but that doesn’t help teach anyone anything about baseball skills other than what the announcer passed on, because its all left to the imagination. Back then our LLLrs would go to the HS games, and although there weren’t many colleges around, there were literally scads of semi-pro teams playing all the time during the summer. If there was even just 1 HS ball player in 10 that went to college games, most schools, wouldn’t have stadiums big enough to hold the crowds! Look, if you want kids to watch ML players and do exactly as they do, you go on and do it. If I had my druthers, I pick something more within their grasp. It just 2 different philosophies, and evidently it kills you that I won’t kowtow to you and say your right. |
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