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Post by pstein on Apr 24, 2012 11:05:03 GMT -8
In this thread, Kharma and I intend on debating over Mike Marshall's hitting and pitching mechanics. While I have stated that I think some things that Marshall says are demonstrably wrong.
So, let our debate begin.
P.S.: Kharma, can you do me a favor and post the Marshall batting document? I can't find it.
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Post by dominik on Apr 24, 2012 11:28:56 GMT -8
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Post by pstein on Apr 24, 2012 11:41:06 GMT -8
Thank you, Dom.
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Post by dominik on Apr 24, 2012 12:24:54 GMT -8
sorry for going into your thread kharma but have you looked into dr. yeagers hitting material?
he seems to have some similar positions in hitting like marshall cosidering the upper body (back arm pronation, throwing of the bat by a push pull action of the arms and lead arm deceleration) he is a little different in the lower body though as he doesn't believe that the COG should move forward through contact but he does believe that the back leg pushes but the front leg braces and stops the forward momentum.
I like the point that the rear arm keeps the COG of the bat up and from dropping (yeager has a similar point in that he believes that the bat should be pointing up as long as you can at swing initiation). I believe that the bat does get slightly below the ball but this cannot happen too early or too much.
many kids drop the bat too much and early and thus have too big of a loop. the greats all have a loop but it should be tight and short. If you keep the bat above the ball at swing initiation the swing will be tighter and shorter.
BTW: I got a hit with a a marshall line drive in our first season game ;D. came down just next to the second baseman. unfortunately an absolute monster line drive got caught by the center fielder:). usually I still prefer the liner over the infield.
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Post by pstein on Apr 24, 2012 14:59:04 GMT -8
Kharma,
No good hitter does this. You simply can't be quick enough with guys throwing 95 mph and then have adjustability when the pitcher throws a curve.
Again, acceleration of the bat needs to be done by contact. Driving through the ball is more or less impossible. If you're attempting to "drive through the ball", your maximum bat-speed is out front. It needs to be deep to "chauffeur" the ball.
Not true at all, high-level hitters go through anterior tilt. It's not conscious, but they do it and seem to have no issue with "maximal rotation".
Overhead views show that no good hitter does this. While it's an OK thought, and while they're not trying to swing with an elliptical hand path, they end up doing it anyway.
No. Not even close. Marshall is advocating a model in which the batter has to transfer his weight to the front side and then swing. The opposite of what good hitters do. And, for a man who claims that he knows science so well, he should know that most scientific studies conclude that the axis of rotation is the spine. The feel is in the rear hip.
Video shows the opposite. Marshall doesn't appear to understand that the ball drops as it moves towards the plate. Newton's First Law actually covers this indirectly. A net, unbalanced, outside force is acting on the baseball, causing it to drop.
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Post by pstein on Apr 25, 2012 17:44:14 GMT -8
PStein Ok now let's move on to pitching.  I'll make some general observations but I agree with you on some of your points. First, the big mistake you traditionalists make is to compare a new technique to the so called "best". To say that the best don't do this or that gives our kids a mindset to not considering anything totally new. I'd prefer to not leave all American innovation to our Chines and Indian immigrants. At the very least, if we are going to pound our kids with your Luddite scientific mindset then we should at least pound our Congressmen to let foreigners educated here stay here after graduating. As far as Dr Marshall's knowledge of baseball'd falling velocity, that was covered over 30 years ago. drmikemarshall.com/ChapterTwenty.htmlAs for your first point about lowering the COM to hit oncoming 90 MPH baseballs, I agree. I certainly don't see how you can turn on your front foot from a lowered COM or lowering your COM. That is the big thing I don't inderstand about Marshall's hitting technique. I disagree with your second point. The key tenet for me in Dr Marshall's hitting technique is the force coupling that occurs right BEFORE striking the baseball. I recommend that youth hitters separate their hands on the bat to get this feeling of force coupling. The part about continuing the movement of the COM through release is new. I can see how Dr Marshall wants to line up his hitting principles with his pitching principles. One of my fellow pitching instructors swears that this way is better but only practices this way for now. I have some film of it but I think it would get the reaction that O'Leary's first iteration of Marshall pitching motion got (for you Eteamz old timers) That said I have always believed in coming off the back foot when hitting. A guy from LSU has a tape on this but I can't recall his name. I do believe the upper body should basically be vertical to rotate faster. I do not believe in a significant bend in the knees. Given Marshall's hitting strategy, I agree that the bat has to contact pitched baseballs horizontally. Like Woody Hayes he does not like balls put in the air. My disagreement with this is if you don't have a coach with the small ball strategy. I am going to reach out to one of the guys who participated in this training. But it will probably be over the weekend. I feel I know the pitching much better than the hitting but I hope this helps. Kharma Kharma, first, I have to love your remarks about our government. While I like the pendulum swing, I'm convinced that doing it "palm up" puts the feel in the wrong place. Doing it with the palm to the side or perhaps (if doing it carefully) facing it down is in my opinion beneficial. With regard to the "pitching forearm flyout", I think it's related to arm slot. Guys who throw overhand don't tend to exhibit it. Since most pitchers don't pitch overhand, Marshall sees it and labels it a flaw. The fielding position, we've talked about this. While (in terms of safety) the best position is the whole body turned like a Traditional pitcher in the stretch, I don't think it's practical with regard to fielding the position. While I like it, I feel as though there's a better way to do it. The advocating of rotation as a unit, when it's obvious that the best pitchers have a significant "X-Factor" and "X-Factor Stretch". The separation of hips and shoulders must be considerable, not slight. Finally, the number of pitches. You don't need 3 types of fastball to pitch successfully. The fastballs are also lower velocity, which makes them hittable, regardless of movement. The screwball and the Maxline Pronated Curve I like. I'm happy that Marshall teaches a screwball. Most instructors (whom both of us would consider idiots) think that the screwball is "injurious". |
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Post by dominik on Apr 26, 2012 11:54:29 GMT -8
Kharma here is what yeager believes in regards to the hands through contact:
here is a drill:
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Post by pstein on Apr 26, 2012 12:31:34 GMT -8
PStein Putting aside whether you agree or not, what is the purpose of taking the ball out of the glove with your hand under the ball and pendulum swinging your arm such that the palm of the pitching hand is facing away from your body when the heal of the glove foot lands? Most pitchers don't pitch overhand??? That's a new one. I assume you know that "arm slot" is a myth. In my view the reason pitchers have forearm flyout is twofold. 1. They take the baseball behind their acromial line during the windup. 2. They use their Pectoralis Major muscle to pull the baseball forward. Do you believe that traditional pitchers do these two things? Leave aside for now whether you believe these two things lead to forearm flyout. As for fielding would you agree that your analogy does not hold up for a RH pitcher? If you watched the Braves game last night you saw their closer finish in the Brett/Dee endorsed Greg Maddux position. He took one right off the cheek. Then proceeded to blow the save. So much for finishing perpendicular to the driveline. Pitchers that have both feet on the ground when the baseball crosses home plate can react much more quickly to batted balls, are much closer to bunts and are much safer. As far as the separation of the hips and shoulders, do you believe in the importance of the core in baseball pitching? Are you in the Chris O'Leary camp that basically says: ----- I know it's injurious to the Oblique Internus Abdominus muscle but the kids be damned----- Anyway that gives me more fodder to pimp for ASMI trained doctors. (I'm paraphrasing here  As for the number of pitches in the quiver, If one of them is outstanding I agree you can get by (see M. Rivera) but I don't see why you would object to having 6 pitchers eater than three. You like the Maxline Pronation Curve. You like the Maxkine True Screwball. That's 2 pitches. I assume you like the fastball. That's 3 pitches. Now you have your three pitches. But do you want the fastball to move in both directions? If so, you are up to 4 pitches. Do you want a breaking ball that moves to the pitching arm side? If so, now you are up to Five pitches. I look forward to your responses. Thanks Kharma I assume the purpose is to prevent "Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce", which don't truly see as a flaw, since most hard throwers do it. It's difficult to not take the baseball behind the acromial line. I am convinced that there is a certain level up to which it sis safe. As for "pulling with the Pectoralis Major", I've no idea what that means. Arm slot is a myth? Since when? When I say "overhand", I'm talking about the arm being at the 10-11 o'clock position (assuming 12 is the head) for a right hander. Not all pitchers do that. And the ones who do have the arm in that position tend not to exhibit what I believe would be termed as "Pitching Forearm Flyout". 3-4 pitches is optimal. 6 is too many to learn, and too many to control. Leading to very high walk rates. And 74% of all lead-off walks come around to score. This is not a good number. Finally, regarding separation, I'm not in the O'Leary camp. I'm in the high-level pitcher camp. We'll throw Lincecum out, since he's having problems that I believe could be mechanically related. But Nolan Ryan had outstanding separation, Tom Seaver did, and so did many other durable pitchers. If you condition PROPERLY and work on strengthening the core, It shouldn't be an issue. You typically see Oblique Internus Abdominus muscle strains far earlier in the year. |
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Post by dominik on Apr 26, 2012 15:23:08 GMT -8
PStein Putting aside whether you agree or not, what is the purpose of taking the ball out of the glove with your hand under the ball and pendulum swinging your arm such that the palm of the pitching hand is facing away from your body when the heal of the glove foot lands? Most pitchers don't pitch overhand??? That's a new one. I assume you know that "arm slot" is a myth. In my view the reason pitchers have forearm flyout is twofold. 1. They take the baseball behind their acromial line during the windup. 2. They use their Pectoralis Major muscle to pull the baseball forward. Do you believe that traditional pitchers do these two things? Leave aside for now whether you believe these two things lead to forearm flyout. As for fielding would you agree that your analogy does not hold up for a RH pitcher? If you watched the Braves game last night you saw their closer finish in the Brett/Dee endorsed Greg Maddux position. He took one right off the cheek. Then proceeded to blow the save. So much for finishing perpendicular to the driveline. Pitchers that have both feet on the ground when the baseball crosses home plate can react much more quickly to batted balls, are much closer to bunts and are much safer. As far as the separation of the hips and shoulders, do you believe in the importance of the core in baseball pitching? Are you in the Chris O'Leary camp that basically says: ----- I know it's injurious to the Oblique Internus Abdominus muscle but the kids be damned----- Anyway that gives me more fodder to pimp for ASMI trained doctors. (I'm paraphrasing here As for the number of pitches in the quiver, If one of them is outstanding I agree you can get by (see M. Rivera) but I don't see why you would object to having 6 pitchers eater than three. You like the Maxline Pronation Curve. You like the Maxkine True Screwball. That's 2 pitches. I assume you like the fastball. That's 3 pitches. Now you have your three pitches. But do you want the fastball to move in both directions? If so, you are up to 4 pitches. Do you want a breaking ball that moves to the pitching arm side? If so, now you are up to Five pitches. I look forward to your responses. Thanks Kharma I assume the purpose is to prevent "Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce", which don't truly see as a flaw, since most hard throwers do it. It's difficult to not take the baseball behind the acromial line. I am convinced that there is a certain level up to which it sis safe. As for "pulling with the Pectoralis Major", I've no idea what that means. Arm slot is a myth? Since when? When I say "overhand", I'm talking about the arm being at the 10-11 o'clock position (assuming 12 is the head) for a right hander. Not all pitchers do that. And the ones who do have the arm in that position tend not to exhibit what I believe would be termed as "Pitching Forearm Flyout". 3-4 pitches is optimal. 6 is too many to learn, and too many to control. Leading to very high walk rates. And 74% of all lead-off walks come around to score. This is not a good number. Finally, regarding separation, I'm not in the O'Leary camp. I'm in the high-level pitcher camp. We'll throw Lincecum out, since he's having problems that I believe could be mechanically related. But Nolan Ryan had outstanding separation, Tom Seaver did, and so did many other durable pitchers. If you condition PROPERLY and work on strengthening the core, It shouldn't be an issue. You typically see Oblique Internus Abdominus muscle strains far earlier in the year. I agree that all great throwers do have bounce (ball still going back while elbow already goes forward). I think some is OK but I do believe that too much bounce does indeed hurt the arm. the more forcefull the bounce is the harder the stress. for example strasburgs arm still has to externally rotate nearly 180 degrees as the elbow starts to accelerate. I don't nessecarily agree with marshall that you should have 100% ER before the elbow starts to accelerate but maybe if you limit that "dynamic ER" to 60-90 degrees by having some ER in the pendulum swing you can take some force off. it doesn't always need to be all or nothing:). @kharma yeager believes that the barrel should be realitively vertical for as long as possible as the swing starts. he has a lot more videos you can watch them there. he also has another account on youtube which I think has the better vids (the other has more promotion of his devices he now sells)-just put his name into youtube). |
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Post by pstein on Apr 26, 2012 16:03:58 GMT -8
PStein Is it your view that the $500MM in MLB pitching injuries every year is simply a cost of doing business? Do you think fathers should accept that surgery is the price they will pay for success. Remember that Dr Andrews says that it is not a matter of if but when you go see him. He should know He sponsors ASMI. Thanks Kharma Not at all. I know there's a better way to do it. The issue is (at least in my mind) that Marshall's way is not the better way to do it. |
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Post by pstein on Apr 26, 2012 16:09:20 GMT -8
psteinI agree that all great throwers do have bounce (ball still going back while elbow already goes forward). I think some is OK but I do believe that too much bounce does indeed hurt the arm. the more forceful the bounce is the harder the stress. for example strasburgs arm still has to externally rotate nearly 180 degrees as the elbow starts to accelerate. I don't necessarily agree with marshall that you should have 100% ER before the elbow starts to accelerate but maybe if you limit that "dynamic ER" to 60-90 degrees by having some ER in the pendulum swing you can take some force off. it doesn't always need to be all or nothing:). I agree. There's an acceptable level of ER. There are few absolutes in pitching outside of "throw strikes". I would estimate that approximately 45-70 degrees of ER at foot-strike is acceptable. Anything up to about 90 degrees seems to be OK. Beyond 90 degrees is likely injurious. What Strasburg does has proven to be injurious. His shoulder is going next. |
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Post by pstein on Apr 29, 2012 7:27:24 GMT -8
PStein How important is core rotation in your pitching philosophy? Thanks Dom All you have to do is look at Oleary's latest beast to see what happens with holding the bat too vertical. By and large I think kids are better served starting out with Marshall's hitting motion. Now that High Schools have to deal with BBCOR bats ( where I see a big difference) I think there is an argument for small ball. If you are in a position where the long ball is expected you have to at least change the angle of the finish. I'll check out more of Yaeger. Thanks Kharma Very. You can't throw hard without building up a resistance to the rotation and then having reactive rotation. |
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Post by pstein on Apr 29, 2012 13:24:36 GMT -8
PStein So the the core rotation is important to you yet you endorse a pitching motion (hip and trunk separation) that does not fully utilize the core. When you separate the hip and trunk rotation you can only rotate the hip about 45 degrees and the trunk about 90 degrees. If the core rotation is so important why do you endorse hip and trunk rotation that limits the ability of the core to fully rotate? As for "no such thing as arm slot" you can't lift the humerus bone above the line across the shoulders in the traditional pitching motion. What you call arm slot is simply leaning the line across shoulders to the glove side. in the big scheme of things I know what you are saying so I generally leave the arm slot comment alone. Kharma The serape muscles contract and bring the core around. And the contraction of those muscles brings the trunk around far more forcefully than rotation as a unit can. Yes, I agree with that regarding arm slot. It's a tilting of the shoulders that produces it. But if you think "I want to throw 3/4", your shoulders will do what they need to in order to get the arm up in that position. It isn't an active tilt of the shoulders. |
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Post by pstein on May 3, 2012 18:40:13 GMT -8
PStein For a reference point use the pitching mound. I'm saying the hips will only go 45 degrees short of the mound and the shoulders will only get to parallel to the mound. Agree? Yet you say the core is very important?? Kharma Agreed. Not a question. |
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Post by pstein on May 4, 2012 12:44:51 GMT -8
Pstein Ok you agree that the core is very important yet you agree to a pitching mechanic that, at best, allows you only 50% of possible core rotation. So this makes these serape muscles critically important. I understand where you ate heading but could you name what you believe are the Serape muscles. Thanks Kharma I'm looking into my crystal ball and I see the Stretch Shortening Cycle discussion in my future. Kharma, I use the word in the sense of the study done nearly 50 years ago. Rhomboids, Serratus Anterior, Oblique Externus Abdominus, and Oblique Internus Abdominus. |
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