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Post by girlmac on Jun 2, 2009 4:55:11 GMT -8
Anyone have any thoughts on the differences between these two associations? How about the differences in the rules for players 13U and under?
I don't understand why USSSA has lead offs at this age when players are still learning the fundamentals of the game, where to throw, how to make a double play. It makes no sense. I think it disrupts the game.
We had a play where there was a runner on third, catcher dropped the ball, and the runner had such a head start (base distance is what 65 feet) that he tried to steal home, almost coliding with the hitter, while almost getting beamed in the head with the ball being thrown to the pitcher. I thought for sure someone was going to get really hurt.
If he didn't have a lead off, there would not have been a situation where two or more kids could have been injured. Plus, as was pointed out to me, if that were to happen at a higher level, to stop it apparently the next hitter would have been hit by the pitcher.
What is this exactly trying to show our young boys anyway? At this level they are still learning proper mechanics to throw, catch, and hit. Learning cutoffs, defense drills, ect.
Its one thing if it is a rare occurance, but these volunteer dads that are living la vida loca out of their kids push them to steal EVERY single time. Not really teaching them to watch the movements of the pitcher, see where the ball gets thrown. I mean they are screaming at these kids to run before the pitcher is even in his wind up? And they get away with it because these kids are not acurate yet at throwing the ball and catching it. So you either try and throw him out and the ball goes into the outfield, or you let him steal hoping that no one gets injured at the plate if the hitter doesn't make contact.
They don't do this in little league...right?
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Post by HYP on Jun 2, 2009 9:28:02 GMT -8
Anyone have any thoughts on the differences between these two associations? How about the differences in the rules for players 13U and under? I don't understand why USSSA has lead offs at this age when players are still learning the fundamentals of the game, where to throw, how to make a double play. It makes no sense. I think it disrupts the game. We had a play where there was a runner on third, catcher dropped the ball, and the runner had such a head start (base distance is what 65 feet) that he tried to steal home, almost coliding with the hitter, while almost getting beamed in the head with the ball being thrown to the pitcher. I thought for sure someone was going to get really hurt. If he didn't have a lead off, there would not have been a situation where two or more kids could have been injured. Plus, as was pointed out to me, if that were to happen at a higher level, to stop it apparently the next hitter would have been hit by the pitcher. What is this exactly trying to show our young boys anyway? At this level they are still learning proper mechanics to throw, catch, and hit. Learning cutoffs, defense drills, ect. Its one thing if it is a rare occurance, but these volunteer dads that are living la vida loca out of their kids push them to steal EVERY single time. Not really teaching them to watch the movements of the pitcher, see where the ball gets thrown. I mean they are screaming at these kids to run before the pitcher is even in his wind up? And they get away with it because these kids are not acurate yet at throwing the ball and catching it. So you either try and throw him out and the ball goes into the outfield, or you let him steal hoping that no one gets injured at the plate if the hitter doesn't make contact. They don't do this in little league...right? At 13u in USSSA they should be playing either 50' pitch distance and 70' base distance or most likley 54' pitch distance and 80' bases. By this age they should be able to play catch. When would you suggest they learn how to play the game? When they are in HS? That's to late. USSSA and other travel ball organizations were originally geared towards the better players. To give them a competitive place to play. LL is a rec. league and anyone can play. Unfortunately, everyone has found the travel ball scene. Anyone who wants to put together a team can as long as the pay the entry fee. There is suppose to be different levels of travel ball, majors, AAA and AA but there generally is not enough teams in each division that show up so they all get kind of lumped together. Even in LL at 13 you would be leading off and having the same things happening. In PONY baseball, I beleive they start leading off at age 8. You have to learn eventually. Also, who ever told you that the next batter would get dumped because of that play has no clue. That play was baseball. At the higher levels you generally only get thrown at if you show up the other team. |
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Post by girlmac on Jun 2, 2009 14:22:19 GMT -8
In 9U, we are following the USSSA rules and bases are set at 65" We have played rec and AA, at this age there is very little difference between the two. Yes. I agree that by the time they reach HS they need to know the game, but in 3rd grade when there is no one on but the runner on 3rd, is it really necessary to have them steal home? In 3-4 grade they are still learning fundamentals and they do not throw well yet. So I just think that the rules need to better reflect the level of play. The same rules should not apply for 9 year olds and 13 year old age groups and it seems to me in USSSA they do not make an adjustment where is Little league they do. Can't we adjust rules for each level of play?  |
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Post by imagine44 on Jun 14, 2009 15:42:46 GMT -8
Kharma, I read that chapter. Are the base distances a typo? 30 feet for 7 and 8 year olds!? 45 feet for 9 and 10!? Wouldn't someone get hurt? ;D  |
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Post by HYP on Jun 14, 2009 21:12:17 GMT -8
In 9U, we are following the USSSA rules and bases are set at 65" We have played rec and AA, at this age there is very little difference between the two. Yes. I agree that by the time they reach HS they need to know the game, but in 3rd grade when there is no one on but the runner on 3rd, is it really necessary to have them steal home? In 3-4 grade they are still learning fundamentals and they do not throw well yet. So I just think that the rules need to better reflect the level of play. The same rules should not apply for 9 year olds and 13 year old age groups and it seems to me in USSSA they do not make an adjustment where is Little league they do. Can't we adjust rules for each level of play? Girlmac: I watched some 10 year olds playoing in a state USSSA tournament yesterday. They allowed the kids to steal. I was talking to a mother whose son was a defeinite biologically accelerated young man. He was the catcher. He looked exhausted. He was a catcher, a pitcher and a 1st baseman and for good measure played on another team. I said nothing I wished her and her son well and went on my way. Shame on me I suppose. Anyway, this will never happen but happy reading. drmikemarshall.com/ChapterTwelve.htmlKharma I will say I have always been an advocate of the base distance growing with the kids but IMO those distances are a litlle small. The rest is a little crazy. Some kids are freshman in HS at age 14. If they follow this routine. They won't understand how to play the actual game until they're seniors in HS. Also, a 6 inning game would end up lasting 4 hours. Everyone bats every inning? 12 kids on a team, 24 plate appearances each inning. Batters don't walk. Yah, sounds like a 4 hour game, maybe longer. I would say, one thing that would be acheived, over a long period of time, would be parody. Because eventually no one would know how to play the game and we would have bad baseball. Dr. Marshall is, I'm sure, a very smart man but Karhma, please. He doesn't have all the answer for everything in baseball. I will say that it almost sounds like a cult and you are one of his biggest admires and followers. I'm sure you have heard this before but some freindly advise. If he asks you out for a drink of some "purple" stuff, DO NOT go.  ;D |
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Post by colkid3 on May 3, 2010 10:26:12 GMT -8
Anyone have any thoughts on the differences between these two associations? How about the differences in the rules for players 13U and under? I don't understand why USSSA has lead offs at this age when players are still learning the fundamentals of the game, where to throw, how to make a double play. It makes no sense. I think it disrupts the game. We had a play where there was a runner on third, catcher dropped the ball, and the runner had such a head start (base distance is what 65 feet) that he tried to steal home, almost coliding with the hitter, while almost getting beamed in the head with the ball being thrown to the pitcher. I thought for sure someone was going to get really hurt. If he didn't have a lead off, there would not have been a situation where two or more kids could have been injured. Plus, as was pointed out to me, if that were to happen at a higher level, to stop it apparently the next hitter would have been hit by the pitcher. What is this exactly trying to show our young boys anyway? At this level they are still learning proper mechanics to throw, catch, and hit. Learning cutoffs, defense drills, ect. Its one thing if it is a rare occurance, but these volunteer dads that are living la vida loca out of their kids push them to steal EVERY single time. Not really teaching them to watch the movements of the pitcher, see where the ball gets thrown. I mean they are screaming at these kids to run before the pitcher is even in his wind up? And they get away with it because these kids are not acurate yet at throwing the ball and catching it. So you either try and throw him out and the ball goes into the outfield, or you let him steal hoping that no one gets injured at the plate if the hitter doesn't make contact. They don't do this in little league...right? Most of all USSSA team have payed coachs and are tournment team only practice all year round indoors or outdoors . My son played on travel baseball from U9 and still plays now U14 . The game time experience that he has with difference pitchers, plays they make , are awesome to learn at the early age and just keep building from there . Little league has volunteer coachs ( AKA Daddy ball ) Some kids make the allstar and some Don`t. USSSA is the allstars that play on travel teams that want to play better baseball and not just play with the grass in RF . Its just for the kids to get ALOT better . Find a local USSSA tournment and you will see the difference at U9 and up |
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Post by callyjr on Jul 11, 2011 13:56:36 GMT -8
The difference between the kids coming out of LL and kids playing tourney ball are like watching a HS game vs a pro game.
LL rules are backwards. Why teach a kid to get off the base when a catcher catches the ball, that's when he should be getting back. Why not teach them how to pitch correctly from the start. Why not teach them proper DP footwork now rather them having to learn it al over again at 13.
11/12 years playing on 46/60 diamond, that's silly and dangerous.
soccer has a pretty good model to split the talent, keeps kids playing with kids at their same talent level. USSSA also does this, LL puts kids that throw 70 on the same field with kids that cannot even catch and they would have a lot more fun playing with kids that throw 50.
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Post by pstein on Jul 11, 2011 16:19:37 GMT -8
Agreed. Little League favors the fast maturer.
Example: Luke Ramirez (I think that's the kid's name) 6 foot 2, 200 lbs. I'll bet that he's bigger than most of us here (he's bigger than I am). It must be terrifying to face a kid who's 6 foot 2, 200 lbs from 46 feet away.
I think that Little League should be based on biological age (not chronological). This would lead to a more level field of play (rather than have guys who are 4 foot 11, 90 lbs play against guys twice their weight and nearly a foot taller)
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Post by encinitas on Jul 15, 2011 16:53:42 GMT -8
It's all a matter of where your friends play, and where the more competitive league happens to be in town. If it's LL so be it. One of our LL's was drafted last year by Builder's team, he could have played Pony, but that's what travel ball is for.
Luke was not really 6'2", more like my size. Both him and Kiko from the LL team are now SD Show players, and doing just fine. All youth baseball favors the early maturer Pstein. Doesn't matter what branding. Most of our kids played LL during the week and travel on Sunday's and in the summer.
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Post by callyjr on Jul 19, 2011 16:28:44 GMT -8
It's all a matter of where your friends play, and where the more competitive league happens to be in town. If it's LL so be it. One of our LL's was drafted last year by Builder's team, he could have played Pony, but that's what travel ball is for. Luke was not really 6'2", more like my size. Both him and Kiko from the LL team are now SD Show players, and doing just fine. All youth baseball favors the early maturer Pstein. Doesn't matter what branding. Most of our kids played LL during the week and travel on Sunday's and in the summer. Encinitas, What age is your boy this year? my 4'11 10yr old faced a couple 12U 6 foot and taller kids this year. Actually pitched against one as well and I was not liking it, we pitched everything inside to him. no way I was gonna let that kid get extended. |
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Post by encinitas on Jul 19, 2011 19:51:31 GMT -8
My youngest just turned 14 so he's a year out of LL. Last year this time as all-stars. While we expect that he's going to be one big hombre in the 6'4" range, he's not an early developer he was 5'6" or so last year in all-stars? You could basically tell who was by the fact that the kids were already taller than their dad at 12. My older son didn't pass me until 16 earlier this year, and it looks like the little one will pass me at 14 maybe 15.
To answer your question my 10 year old played majors and got abused that year as we had some top flight talent at 12 that year. One of those kids verballed to SDSU before the season before playing an inning of Varsity ball, he was just very good and well-known on the summer circuit. He was dead scary at 12.
The other thing about playing majors that year was while it toughened the boys up, it made 10 year old all-stars difficult, as they were getting buzzed at 70+ and timing was off.
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raptor
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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Post by raptor on Jul 2, 2012 9:25:02 GMT -8
So far this spring/summer our 10u boys have stolen 215 bases through 51 games..been caught 21 times. We don't count defensive indifference or passed balls. Stealing four bags a game sounds like a lot...but most have been against weaker teams relatively...and we have as much team speed as anyone ive seen. But there are teams who we cant run against. The pitchers throw hard..have slide steps..catchers are huge..etc. Last year at 9u everyone stole at will...now there are only five kids who have the green light. I would expect next year when the field becomes 50' 70' everyones steal pct will drop.
I watched a very good 9u team the other day...they didn't throw down to second a single time..just conceded the bag...they did throw to third and were successful. Given the success rate of stealing second it seemed a good strategy..they didn't risk an overthrow and instead concentrated on keeping runners close at second.
I think 10u is an appropriate age to start leadoffs at 46' 65'.
As far as pitching distance..I remember playing ll and being terrified as a 10 yr old facing 12 yr olds from 46'...that's where usssa has it right. But ll does probably make the hitters better by having to face heat from older boys.
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;D