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Post by clevelandcircle on Jun 26, 2009 21:43:58 GMT -8
Excellent post, Kharma.
The key is that pitching, even with Dr. Marshall's mechanically superior motion, is enormously taxing.
That is why the overload implements are used.
The strength they build makes the tissues involved strong enough to withstand the hundreds of thousands of baseball-only reps required to build motor skill, velocity and pitch movement.
The extra weight probably does decrease arm velocity in the short and medium term.
That is called regression, and time away from competition to train properly is the price paid for permanent strength.
Anyone in any interval training program using progressive resistance goes through regression and requires a considerable amount of time to come out of it.
Once the heavy implements are discarded, arm speed will build on the base of strength the heavy implements constructed.
An important note here is about hitting. Hitting is not taxing or potentially injurious.
There is no need to tax the tissues involved to make them immune to injury. There is no need to go through a regression phase.
For that reason, heavier-than-competition implements shouldn't be used in baseball batting.
Light implements are useful in learning the correct mechanics and building movement speed and strength.
Specificity is the key. Only baseball swings performed exactly as in games build strength that is useful in baseball batting. One arm swings count, and they are a great strength builder.
That being said, form is the most important factor in barrel speed. You can't get a quick bat in the weight room.
Bench presses and so forth do not contribute.
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Post by cosmo34 on Jun 26, 2009 22:30:42 GMT -8
You can't get a quick bat in the weight room. Disagree. Completely disagree. Reasoning for this Kharma?
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Post by wrstdude on Jun 28, 2009 8:09:09 GMT -8
Cosmo In re: Squatting with weights, I'd like you to respond as to why you would want a baseball player squatting. The fastest way I have found to shut baseball S&C coaches up is to draw them into talking about the traditionalist kinetic chain for baseball pitching. You know, the notion that power starts from the legs and works its way up through the core, etc. Therefore they say that the stride contributes to release velocity. If they are well versed, they are always fans of ASMI and Dr Fleisig and Dr Andrews. Therefore, I ask them and you this simple question. How can the stride contribute to the kinetic chain of the traditional baseball motion if the baseball is still going backwards when the stride foot lands. I can quote ASMI for you to confirm that they agree that the arm has not reached driveline height with their "elite" pitchers when their stride foot lands. Therefore the legs do not contribute to release velocity in any meaningful way. And let's have a meaningful debate here. I don't want anyone saying to try pitching from a sitting down position. Save that kind of BS for BF. You throw the baseball with your arm my friend. As for squatting for hitters, a previous poster was much more eloquent than I on the argument for underload training for hitters. Kharma In any "meaningful" way? What does that mean? The legs either contribute to release velocity or they don't. How can the stride contribute if the baseball is going backwards? It must not. Signed, Joel Zumya Nolan Ryan and every other fireballer to ever play the game...
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Post by cosmo34 on Jun 28, 2009 13:32:27 GMT -8
Cosmo In re: Squatting with weights, I'd like you to respond as to why you would want a baseball player squatting. Simple answer- Stronger quads, glutes, hamstrings, core, and posterior chain is vital to any athlete. Longer answer- It is the most anabolic exercise out there. It primes the body's anabolic environment to build muslce all over the body (another good thing). It will make you more resistant to injury, run faster, hit the ball farther, throw harder....pretty much everything involved in athletics. You say stride length doesn't matter to pitching. Ok, that's fine to feel that way. I still say leg drive is important to pitching, and even more important to hitting. Not to mention having the endurance to keep your legs under you during long seasons. Don't confuse me with the guys who say you have to do nothing but singles and doubles with extremely heavy weights and with the bar speed of a snail. I have already stated that my main focus is bar speed and being explosive in the lifts. Underload training is nice, but it's only once piece of the puzzle. You still have to get after it with some moderate amount of poundage. This is hogwash. Like wrstdude said, they either do or they don't. The legs are the most important thing in athletics. You can say they aren't, but that is wrong. If they weren't important, then humans wouldn't have been built to have the posterior chain be the strongest part of the body. And you get velocity from arm speed, lower half strength, and separation of the upper and lower. Instead of squatting, what do you have your athletes do? There's a reason they call squats "The King" of exercises, because it is the best hands down exercise out there. If you prevent your athletes from squatting, then you are selling short their athletic potential. If squatting wasn't important, then how was I able to throw 88-89 (with a dying shoulder), run a 6.8 60, and hit balls 450+, yet only had average upperbody strength (and a below average bench press)? I think my mid-400's squat had something to do with that. Those were things I couldn't do when I was squatting in the 300's. My leg strength went up, and my performance skyrocketed. Back to the short answer, leg drive and leg power is important to every single athletic movement. Squatting is the best leg excercise out there. Put those together, and squats are, and should be, a staple in every athlete's arsenal.
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Post by wrstdude on Jun 28, 2009 13:46:45 GMT -8
Cosmo In re: Squatting with weights, I'd like you to respond as to why you would want a baseball player squatting. Simple answer- Stronger quads, glutes, hamstrings, core, and posterior chain is vital to any athlete. Longer answer- It is the most anabolic exercise out there. It primes the body's anabolic environment to build muslce all over the body (another good thing). It will make you more resistant to injury, run faster, hit the ball farther, throw harder....pretty much everything involved in athletics. You say stride length doesn't matter to pitching. Ok, that's fine to feel that way. I still say leg drive is important to pitching, and even more important to hitting. Not to mention having the endurance to keep your legs under you during long seasons. Don't confuse me with the guys who say you have to do nothing but singles and doubles with extremely heavy weights and with the bar speed of a snail. I have already stated that my main focus is bar speed and being explosive in the lifts. Underload training is nice, but it's only once piece of the puzzle. You still have to get after it with some moderate amount of poundage. This is hogwash. Like wrstdude said, they either do or they don't. The legs are the most important thing in athletics. You can say they aren't, but that is wrong. If they weren't important, then humans wouldn't have been built to have the posterior chain be the strongest part of the body. And you get velocity from arm speed, lower half strength, and separation of the upper and lower. Instead of squatting, what do you have your athletes do? There's a reason they call squats "The King" of exercises, because it is the best hands down exercise out there. If you prevent your athletes from squatting, then you are selling short their athletic potential. If squatting wasn't important, then how was I able to throw 88-89 (with a dying shoulder), run a 6.8 60, and hit balls 450+, yet only had average upperbody strength (and a below average bench press)? I think my mid-400's squat had something to do with that. Those were things I couldn't do when I was squatting in the 300's. My leg strength went up, and my performance skyrocketed. Back to the short answer, leg drive and leg power is important to every single athletic movement. Squatting is the best leg excercise out there. Put those together, and squats are, and should be, a staple in every athlete's arsenal. A man after my own heart. After some research, I found the same things you are saying about squats. After about a month of ATG squats my vertical increased about 4-5 inches. It's a wonderful compound lift, that helped my other lifts as well. Good stuff. *waits for kharma to tell us we don't know what we're talking about because Marshall says so*
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caseyd123
Full Member
Falcon Pride Til I Die
Posts: 193
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Post by caseyd123 on Jun 29, 2009 0:42:13 GMT -8
cosmo I have heard that heavy benching is detrimental in baseball because it kills flexibility. the same place said that you should do no more than your body weight. do you agree? if so, do you recommend staying on my body weight and trying for explosiveness? they also said any over-the-head shoulder stuff was dangerous. Let me show you what I'm trying to do: A buddy and I have been hitting and using Alan Jaeger's long toss program every day (or at least 5 days a week). If you're not familiar with it, the Jaeger program uses surgical tubing for rotator cuff work. What I'm trying to do is supplement daily long toss and BP with an effective weight/strength plan that won't leave us too sore for games or too non-flexible....basically how do we become Ichiro? Do you understand what i'm asking though? It's kinda tough with baseball...much simpler with football
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Post by wrstdude on Jun 29, 2009 6:47:45 GMT -8
Dude Cosmo leaving aside the obvious fact the you have to stand on your legs to pitch the stride contributes nothing to release velocity. I would like both of you to tell the board whether you believe in the kinetic chain. If so explain how the legs contribute to the kinetic chain when ASMI tells us the baseball is still going backwards when the stride leg lands. Casey you are asking the wrong people for advise. But you have an excuse. You are young. With the carnage the other guys have seen there is no excuse. Kharma In 1998, Bruce MacWillams conducted a study that examined ground reaction forces during the pitching motion. The study's results indicated that leg drive is a significant factor in pitcher's throwing velocity. The push motion in the delivery is not the only important action of the lower body. The lead leg that blocks forward movement is also an essential element in a pitcher's throwing velocity. In a 2001 study, Matsuo found that high velocity throwers were able to plant and extend the lead knee to provide stability to the pitching motion. In addition, the Lexington Clinic was provided an outline evaluating kinetic movements. T hey included a .89 correlation between throwing velocity and lower body strength. *waits for Marshall told me that's wrong post*
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Post by wrstdude on Jun 29, 2009 8:28:02 GMT -8
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Post by cosmo34 on Jun 29, 2009 12:34:42 GMT -8
cosmo I have heard that heavy benching is detrimental in baseball because it kills flexibility. the same place said that you should do no more than your body weight. do you agree? if so, do you recommend staying on my body weight and trying for explosiveness? they also said any over-the-head shoulder stuff was dangerous. Let me show you what I'm trying to do: A buddy and I have been hitting and using Alan Jaeger's long toss program every day (or at least 5 days a week). If you're not familiar with it, the Jaeger program uses surgical tubing for rotator cuff work. What I'm trying to do is supplement daily long toss and BP with an effective weight/strength plan that won't leave us too sore for games or too non-flexible....basically how do we become Ichiro? Do you understand what i'm asking though? It's kinda tough with baseball...much simpler with football Heavy benching can be very detrimental because, like you said, it can inhibit flexibility in the shoulder/chest tie-in area. Most do it with terrible form (arms at 90 degrees, huge back arch, etc...) but it can help. If you want to do it, I'd go with dumbell presses. More flexibility, and the angles aren't set with the predetermined bar angles. Any over head presses can be dangerous. You have to be very careful with them. I wouldn't say "stay at this weight and this weight only". Progressions need to made. But the main point is, pick weights that you can control and lift explosively. Shoot for higher reps with overhead presses and try to power through the lifts as explosively as possible. This will make you much stronger and get used to firing muscles in an explosive manner, and do so without adding too much bulk or inhibiting flexibility. I understand what you are saying, you want explosiveness and flexibility in your program, while building strength. That's easy. It's basic common sense really (not saying that you lack it, but you get what I mean). Don't play patty-cake with the weights, but don't go too heavy for the upper/overhead lifts. Bl*w me Kharma. You say you want a discussion on this stuff. Then take cheap shots because someone asks me a question. Case asked a good question, one that I am more than qualified to answer. Don't see me takin any pot shots at you, do ya? Case disregard anything Kharma says. He's just a puppet for Marshall. See how easy that was? Now did that add anything to the discussion? Not one bit, so knock it off.
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Post by wrstdude on Jun 30, 2009 16:30:08 GMT -8
Dude Can you post those studies? Thanks Do you believe there is a kinetic chain for baseball pitching? Kharma So I posted the studies. Do you still believe the legs contribute nothing? Or do you still blindly believe everything Marshall tells you?
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Post by wrstdude on Jun 30, 2009 16:34:11 GMT -8
Excellent post, Kharma. The key is that pitching, even with Dr. Marshall's mechanically superior motion, is enormously taxing. That is why the overload implements are used. The strength they build makes the tissues involved strong enough to withstand the hundreds of thousands of baseball-only reps required to build motor skill, velocity and pitch movement. The extra weight probably does decrease arm velocity in the short and medium term. That is called regression, and time away from competition to train properly is the price paid for permanent strength. Anyone in any interval training program using progressive resistance goes through regression and requires a considerable amount of time to come out of it. Once the heavy implements are discarded, arm speed will build on the base of strength the heavy implements constructed. An important note here is about hitting. Hitting is not taxing or potentially injurious. There is no need to tax the tissues involved to make them immune to injury. There is no need to go through a regression phase. For that reason, heavier-than-competition implements shouldn't be used in baseball batting. Light implements are useful in learning the correct mechanics and building movement speed and strength. Specificity is the key. Only baseball swings performed exactly as in games build strength that is useful in baseball batting. One arm swings count, and they are a great strength builder. That being said, form is the most important factor in barrel speed. You can't get a quick bat in the weight room. Bench presses and so forth do not contribute. I missed this before. Hitting definitely is not potentially injurious. Signed, Chris Carptenter
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Post by cosmo34 on Jun 30, 2009 20:40:02 GMT -8
I've torn a muscle in my rib cage while swinging a bat. I think I was 8.
BJ Upton has dislocated his shoulder on several occasions while swinging a bat.
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caseyd123
Full Member
Falcon Pride Til I Die
Posts: 193
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Post by caseyd123 on Jun 30, 2009 20:54:26 GMT -8
Casey Donovan has dislocated both knees swinging a bat. Once the right knee while batting lefty (use to switch hit) and of course during senior year the left knee while swinging righty...
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Post by kinexus on Jul 3, 2009 13:42:07 GMT -8
OhhhKayyy
Hyp,
"Throwing footballs does not train pitchers to pitch baseballs. Footballs weigh more than baseballs. Increased football weights increase throwing arm resistances and decrease throwing arm velocities. Throwing footballs sixty miles per hour does not train pitchers to throw ninety-five miles per hour fastballs."
This quote is in response to the growing teachings of traditional pitching coaches like Tom House and others who believe throwing a football (Spiral) to help general shoulder and arm strength. The problem arises when the thrower not being expert at throwing a football by pronating the drive and release will maximally supinate it and perpetuate this destructive motor sequence. Marshall was the one who taught the NFL QB’s back in the 70’s how to actually throw a pronated pass and has not had to go back and reteach it, it’s ironic how the NLF coaches took right to the scientific information and ran with it while the MLB coaches fumbled this one.
Marshall uses Footballs as a Motor Skill Acquisition training device also by having his pitchers throw the football (end over end) to teach axis feel and axis recognition. These two (wrong foot and pendulum full motion) football drills really work well for teaching the feel of pronating from both sides of the ball and learning the 4 main pitches.
I think everybody confuses what Marshall has pitchers perform with what everybody else has their pitchers perform that are vastly different in what they are trying to achieve.
“I have a question about this from the link you posted. He says footballs weigh more then a baseball and will decrease arm velocities”
It’s getting the timing right between two ballistic movements and a baseball throw is faster so it must be trained ballistically matched when training for speed. Ya know the old fast twitch recruitment thing.
Everybody confuses strength with the ability to withstanding ballistic activities by being strong! To throw fast you must also train fast! The slower resistance training is to strengthen these same areas, and best done “Sport specifically”. not just compound but compound and segmented through the mechanical chain.
Cosmo34,
“I absolutely hate it when people say this. It couldn't be further from the truth.”
Oh, it’s true but you will never get to the truth listening to general fitness trainers! I believe covering all 4 (Sport specific, general, Field and ballistic) training tenets is prudent, the problem is the one that is most important is “sport specific” is never implemented!
The time wasted doing power lifts can be used to do other actually beneficial strength Drills with these same muscle groups, nothing is being lost by eliminating them.
Squats, train you to extend (powerfully but unfortunately slowly) you’re knee vertically while your standing, in baseball this will help you jump up and grab that ball over your head a couple more inches, anything else? Squats should never be performed passed 90 degrees for baseball players because that is as far as they ever get plus it puts you at a muscle angularity disadvantage plus mashes you cartilage all over the knee causing recovery scar tissue growths from meniscus and ligament trauma. Now, what would be the best squat type (Sport specific) exercise for a baseball player? I think it would only involve ½ squat to a ballistic jump with wrist weights. Have you ever seen anybody perform these type drills other than Basketball players? They use medicine balls. Just remember the more complex the sport motion the more sport specific the training should be. Throwing and batting are very complex and should be compound strengthened from start to finish using the actual mechanic for proper neural switch timing (proprioceptive awareness).
Now a catcher, they squat but is the act of over catching (bullpens, practice and long games) squatting enough for them? Does the added training of deep knee squats cause more stress than is necessary to be fit for them? From what I have seen the knee is pretty fragile.
Does any body ever put out the associated risks of injury when talking about their favorite lifts and the actual amount of injuries from general power lifting especially? In the vertical direction? Baseball is a mostly horizontal activity (don’t go there Deemax).
The problem here is that you have been exposed to general fitness trainers whom do not either know how to put together a correct Specific interval training regimen or do not care to take it to the next level because it involves much more difficult logistics, apparatus and approaches to get “Sport Specific” with each and every sport. To me they are basically lazy or they missed the opportunity to get it right in their exercise physiology and kinesiology classes in. College or they are just unaware. and I find this to be the case everywhere even with the so called best in their field whom still incorporate Cleans, deep squats and all the rest of the useless to baseball Olympic lifts.
One of my best friends is a professional bowler; he has actually performed in the final at firestone one year. When he was 28 years old his body really looked weird, he had a T-rex looking left arm and a hulk looking right arm, his right leg was scrawny and his left leg was narly, his abs were elongated in their contour from his right peck to his left hip he had the most powerfully pronated spin on the ball and had an incredible average now for 14 years. You should see them try to golf? He starting a general strengthening program from a general fitness trainer friend of his, their goal was to even up his look (muscle balance) so he would perform even better and after about 4 months it was working and he was attaining muscular balance. The problem was his average plummeted for the next year until he lost his pro card. When I would talk to him all he could say was the trainers said I needed balance and to keep training, I told him to go back to the way he lived and trained (Sport specifically) before his difficulty so he did, two years later his game returned and he has kept it that way ever since. His only problem now is he Surfs to the right walks to the left. LOL. Now interject this balanced approach into the throwing or batting motion and it will produce the same affects difference between a “sport specific” training regimen and a general one!!
The best and most under trained aspect of baseball players needs are aggressive protracted field agility workouts to exhaustion every day. The best one I have seen is the Olympic Training Center, field agility routine involving many exaggerated drills.
The best thing a fielder (pitchers are also fielders and subject to the same training) could do to help them is stop running distance and get back to sprints and short dash’s with controlled stops then alignments (where your throwing it).
The best single “Specific” drill (meaning singular muscle group) is the Ulnar flexing pronated bar posterior and anterior radial flexed lifts. Do one set (basically to exhaustion) with a minimum of 24 reps, you may have to use less weight to start, when you can get to 48 reps move up weight a little Take a 16” bar with weight at the opposite end of your grip placement (or a double jack hammer). Hold hand straight down along side your hip thumbs pointed forward. Grab the bar with the weight towards the back and Ulnar flex the weight up to your elbow and to the outside pronating your forearm so now your thumb is down and in. Now turn the bar around and point the weight forward and radial flex the weight up toward your shoulders.
Wrstdude,
“Do you still believe the legs contribute nothing?
Absolutely, well let’s say very little in any forward projection, the question would be, have you even thought about what you have been told here? Or do you only believe what you have been told elsewhere. If you really think independently you will figure it out but then you might have not have access or witnessed any high speed video yet of the traditional pitching motion which would lead you to believe only what you have been told by others who do not have these resources either, nor do they even care to look at it apparently, the injury plague is evidence enough for that conclusion.
With the traditional pitching motion (not a field throw) as shown by this study the back side leg loads up the pitchers plate sensor towards 2nd base and down from body weight (this is good) which pushes the body forward towards home plate at the same time the ball is moving towards 2nd base! (This is bad). When the front side leg touches down all forward movement of the legs and body now come to a complete stop (you will only know this if you witness high speed video or film) and any of the forces previously gained have now been lost back into the plate sensor and then back into the earth, the ball and arm at this point are moving up into its transition phase during initial hip rotation and starts to move backwards. At this point the frontside leg that has been planted for some time now and has received all the forward inertia from the initial forward backside leg force pushes the plate sensor down and towards (think Newton here!) Home plate, basically absorbing the initial force into a backward stopping force. Now the pitcher starts hip rotation, only when the pitcher gets to mid hip rotation does the ball start accelerating towards home plate, long after all leg forces have completely negated each other. The legs are now in position to posturally help the (pelvic strength to static legs) hips then core then shoulders then arm then hand and fingers throw the ball.
It might have helped the researchers to have a timeline of high-speed film to correlate pressure and forward velocities and the many kinetic disruptions in the mechanical drive train before making their final conclusions. Their own skeletal marking system showed no forward movement of the forearm during forwardly projected leg movements.
The second Australian report has no application here.
Where during this mechanical equation do squats come into play? Pitchers should learn to stay tall, rotate and release from higher to attain better downward angle.
Pitchers would have a better chance to get forward drive with both legs (force towards 2nd base, think Newton here) if they were faced towards their objective the way the legs large muscles are built to perform. Traditional pitchers actually use smaller muscles in a splits force not using their large powerful muscles other than to hold up and balance your upper mass. They are using their Tensor Fascia Latae muscle to push backward, such that they have to use their Adductor Brevis muscle to recover their leg forward, which in Kinesiological terms is hip joint abduction without extending the knee joint.
If pitchers would turn their ball arm foot towards home plate just 45 degrees then they could use their Gluteus Maximus muscle extend their hip joint and their quadriceps muscle group to extend their knee joint and their hip joint flexor muscles to recover their leg. Much more efficient and the way we are built to drive forwardly. This movement eliminates Hip and Knee replacement surgery later in life plus eliminates lower back and groin injuries. You could call the traditional leg lift then drop drive “crotchdrive”since the big muscles aren’t even being used for the porposes traditionally thaught to be happening.
"Or do you still blindly believe everything Marshall tells you?”
We are not experts, He is, there would be no basis for us to disagree.
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Post by clevelandcircle on Jul 3, 2009 14:42:51 GMT -8
Excellent post, Kinexus.
Unfortunately, many baseball players perform bodybuilding and general fitness routines as a form of "psychological armor."
It is a body image matter. They think that they play better with the kind of look that only bodybuilding routines produce.
Of course, that is a short-term balm.
Only perfect force application technique, superior motor skill and iron-like specific strength ensure success.
Specific strength. There are many bench press champs in dugouts all over the world who can't generate any bat speed with one-arm swings using a game bat against pitched wiffle balls and hit them 75 feet in the air.
That is because only an interval training program of hitting up to 96 pitched wiffle balls per day for months on end with one arm only creates the hand, wrist, forearm and upper-arm strength required to hit said ball 75 feet in the air using a game bat.
Of course, most hitters are better off avoiding such a repetitive and sometimes tedious training routine because they don't use a force application technique that would benefit from one-arm swings.
Most have long swings, loops, uppercuts, collapsed back sides and arm actions that resemble that used to produce a slice in golf.
The best way for pitchers to play with unassailable confidence is to be able to throw a wide variety of pitches for strikes that move to both sides of the plate at different speeds while never facing the risk of arm injury.
The best way for hitters to play with unassailable confidence is to be able to anticipate when and where pitched balls will enter the contact zone and to be able to drive 90+ fastballs on the line to the opposite field with a force-coupling swing whose entire arc is no larger than the batter's forearm is long.
Neither are attainable in the weight room.
But body armor is, and in the absence of knowing how to produce force in batting or throwing, it must be some comfort.
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