Baseball Weight/Strength Training
Jul 9, 2009 1:32:42 GMT -8
Post by kinexus on Jul 9, 2009 1:32:42 GMT -8
Cosmo34,
“No it is not true.”
Yes, it is true!
"hitting a tire with a sledgehammer will only make you better at hitting a tire with a sledgehammer"
This drill will make you better at hitting a tire with a sledgehammer than hitting a baseball with a bat. This is a fact. I’ll take the guy whom practices live batting over the guy whom swings the sledgehammer and other things and live the any day.
“is completely false and misleading”
You keep saying that these drills make you strong when nobody has said they don’t!
You need to understand what is being said is the more closely and compounded through the athletic mechanics actual movement chain stress reaction physiological adjustment plus the neural timing sequencing makes this tenet most important to not be neglected.
Oh wait a minute here; I forgot you cannot resistance train “Sport Specifically” using the traditional pitching transition and drive !!!!!!!!!!!! anyway, traditional pitchers better go ahead and train Mono.
“At the very root of it, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer will not be the same as working on your pitching/hitting mechanics.”
What are these differences that we should be aware of?
Does this statement say you believe you cannot use heavy resistance to train “Sport Specifically”
“Nobody has argued otherwise”
You are doing a pretty fair job of claiming falseness and misleadinizm, when the exercise physiology texts plainly call this main tenet out when dealing with competitive sports training and their efficacy and history.
“But to say that it will not help you become a better hitter”
It will help you become a better Batter (you will really look good up there) but not a better hitter that calls for “proprioceptive awareness” that you gain from live timing with your actual implement and Specific swings underloaded! You must remember this is a ballistic activity not a slow powerful activity.
“The strength gained in your grip/wrists/forearms, core, shoulders, etc... will make you a stronger and better fit athlete.”
Only if the time spent doing these lifts is time you are not going to spend doing it “Sport Specifically”
“It's called carryover”
That is proprioceptively inferior to spending the same amount of time doing it correctly.
”As the study posted by Kapuna pointed out, there is a very high relation between grip strength and batted ball velocity, or how hard you can hit a baseball. More strength in those areas equals harder hit balls. Ground balls get through the infield quicker, long fly outs become doubles, etc.”
If the Big Kapuna thinks that gripping the handle white knuckle tighter than is necessary to control the slippage of you hands positions he is wrong! If he would use the proper articulation (wrist axis Unar, Radial, Plantar and Dorsi flexion) then I would give his thoughts more credence. Or maybe he is not making this mistake and it is you again after you told me you understood the difference before. Everybody makes this same mistake when discussing batting also.
Now spend the same amount of time resisting “Sport Specifically” and nothing is lost and there is more to gain.
“The results gained from doing such exercises will help the results on the field, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.”
I’ll take the better results of “Sport Specific” training although if you ever need to snatch on the diamond you will dominate.
“There is no such thing as too strong of hands in baseball”
I’ll take wrist strength over hand strength any day!
“and there is no such thing as too strong of a core. Hitting a tire with a sledgehammer (or whichever non "sport specific" exercise you want) will make you a better athlete, and in turn, perform better on the field”
Yet not as good as if you would have used the same time to train “Sport Specifically”.
“We're not in the business of winning science debates”
Yes, this is evidenced by your being caught unawares as with many concerning the truth about competitive Sport training regimens and there associated tenets.
“we're in the business of winning games and getting players to perform to the best of their abilities”
Yet you have missed this all important exercise physiology main tenet like all the general fitness people you have associated your self with in the past, you are not to blame though, how could you have possibly known otherwise? They were not going to tell you! There is false safety in numbers. Tell a lie enough times and everybody is wearing Jackboots.
“Doing such exercises will get the players to perform far better.”
Only if the comparison is with a lesser-trained twin athlete.
”The carryover effect is real.”
Just not as effective. You might want to call this effect “neuroimbalamusculonexus”
”Which is why you develop programs that entail all facets of strength training”
This approach will have a better affect on field player defense than batters or pitchers. So carry on, 9 out of 9 are in the field. And here I only recommend aggressive field agility training.
“What you are saying is that only certain "new science" exercises should be done”
New, that’s not right and that's just wrong! like I told you before none of this is new just neglected.
Have you read Husners research that has become a main tenet or not? Nothing-new there.
“and they can be beneficial. But when you leave out the bread and butter, you are leaving performance on the table. That is never a good thing”
Who is leaving anything, you do not get it. You believe nothing is done to replace needed strength capabilities by performing the resistance exercises “Spot Specifically”, this time is also being spent building the necessary musculature to perform, there is no loss.
While generalists are squating and jerking the Sport specificators am not just laying on the couch!
“I do, especially when I talk about benching. Strength gained is worthless when you can't apply it because you are injured”
Yet you have not explained the risks of “Olympic lifts and squats” to any of your comments. Would you like me to explain them and the carnage that I have witnessed in there use?
“Olympic lifts are anything but useless in athletics.”
So now it’s athletics? In the Olympics the lifters whom compete have followed the tenet of “Sport Specificity” to the max, why don’t you? There is no Clean and Jerk on the diamond ever.
”Edit- color didn't work, so I just bolded my answers.”
No worries just do it the way everybody else does it.
I was hoping Brett could change the way the automatic small size Quote box came out to a larger font or something?
Bee,
”I am sure you have put in the time studying Marshall's concepts”
This is a gross understatement!
“for the last year and a half I have as well”
OK, this comparison is a gross overstatement!
“ Along with this I have studied the results from his pitchers, particularly those who use his full windup, and the results have not been good.”
Why do I see it the other way around, maybe it’s the Yin an Yan thing?
Let me see, there has been like 6 whom have completed Marshall’s training and full change over 4 have actually made a College teams where they had no chance before and the other one pitched his way well enough to perform at a AA level and did very well getting there after not have pitched competitively in 4 years and the other one hid his full motion into a bastardized version and still made it to through the MiLB circuit where he struck out over 600 then arrived in the MLB where he k’d 41 in 26 innings, Isn’t that a record? Hmmm pretty good job if you ask me!
”I am not a pitcher nor a pitching coach so there is little to no need for me to test out this stuff”
This is a cop out, you have your opinions, and I’ll bet you could do a better job than 90% of them out there. I believe you better prepare for your future family of many boys you are going to have that are going to want to pitch just like Uncle Deemax, you will then have to make a decision on whether to add no tenets, a few tenets, most of the tenets or all of them, this will be difficult for you because you have actually looked into this a little, This problem arises with all my new clients once they realize this stuff works and there kid does not complain about soreness from injurious affect anymore, yet some of them grab the dice still
“yet I am very fascinated by it”
You seem more disparaged by it?
“I do believe that there are certain tenets that Marshall teaches that are beneficial to arm health.”
There you go, you are a pitching coach but I hate generalities, which one’s of the 5 main tenets do you agree with, you have not tested them, this seems like “blind faith”
“However, I am far from buying into the notion that his full delivery will make you a better pitcher”
You can probably stop worrying about it because Marshall is no longer physically teaching it after this summer and I will not recommend it’s use as long as nobody will give them the ball, but we will learn how to perform it fully just for the Specific training advantages it gives you. Last year one of my clients refused to change his full mechanic. I rated him at 920 with the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum), very high, I asked many times if he wanted to hesitate his drive with a leg lift so he would be assured a spot on the freshman team. He told me if he cannot use the mechanics he wants (or they will allow) he will fall back on Volleyball. This is exactly what happened, they did not even hold scrimmages for the first time at that school. He now can drive a Torque cutter spick smash and a Maxline tailing smash and a crazy Spike Sinker, he said the Marshall training made a much better Volleyball player.
Again how can you make this leap of faith either way, you have not seen it live, performed it nor competed against it. A great time to test it is when you are throwing BP to someone, you will find you can go all day with no injurious effects.
”Maybe you are not following with blind faith, but the mindset of:”
Understand, physical examination and pedagogical immersion then reproduction of a different sports mechanic than the conventional one? Whets so hard about that, nothing Blind or faithful about it.
”I can't think of another term than blind faith.”
It would be “Blind faith” if I had not tested it! This is not the case.
Think of “Blind Faith” as Erik Clapton, Ginger baker, Stevie Winwood and Ric Grech
Instead of mechanical idoctrination?
”If you are predisposed to agree with everything he says”
Testing it meant that I didn’t agree with everything he says!
“you are just a robot IMO”
If you are wrong about me then I am not a Robot to you, then what am I now?
“Do you ever question his teachings/theories when it comes to pitching?”
Absolutely, I did! When he said it was actually OK to throw pies at opposing batters I said who knew? Then tested it, which proved me wrong.
"When did I say anything about being typo intolerant?"
You didn’t I did!
“If I was”
You were!
“I would have to correct a large number of your sentences here???”
This is what you have already been doing, I’m leading the redactpack.
Every time you delete me, you make me look better, are you sure you want to do this?
Why did you completely remove my post and question in the PCR thread, “where’s the W that the author has in there?” Other people answered the question before you deleted me and it looks like some phantom time warp leap with the following answers now?
“If anything it was a joke in the fact that you referred to Marshall as 'He' by mistake (I hope”
I found it as funny that You would, It looks like a subliminal slap in the face just like calling me a Cult member with out saying it?! Same thing.
“I'm also glad you get a chuckle from someone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say”
That’s unrealistic! You have been a protagonist from the start! With out even looking into it physically the negativity has no meaning. You need to quit selling these Wolf tickets!
“When Kharma refers to those who don't buy into the Marshall motion as the 'Earth is flat crowd' I can't help but think of Columbus.”
That’s funny when I think of that statement I think of Copernicus, Kepler then Gallileo coming to mind long after Columbus, I believe Columbus was one of the Earth is flat guy’s and proved no spherical theories by traveling only 1/8 the distance around the world.
“When those who don't buy into Marshall”
I thought You said, I bought into some of the tenets?
Which ones?
“say that it has not been proven this way will make you more successful”
I don't see the proof otherwise.
"Thread bump to ask Kinexus/Dirtberry/Lon again:"
You forgot Stretch, Yardbird and Foams again.
Do you ever question Marshall's teachings/theories when it comes to pitching and/or hitting?
Well, you only included pitching before and I answered you, now you want to know if I question his teachings/theories when it comes to batting? What for I understand them, they are what they are, all mechanics are. I do not look at it the way you apparently do from an adversarial questioning position! Mechanics are not an enemy.
I’ll tell you this, If Marshall’s Pitching materials get going in the MLB all those big loaded power swings are going to keep enabling the strike out ratios to keep rising higher and higher like they have continued to do in the recent past to the point where the Batters are going to have to go over to Marshall’s batting style to be successful again.
“No it is not true.”
Yes, it is true!
"hitting a tire with a sledgehammer will only make you better at hitting a tire with a sledgehammer"
This drill will make you better at hitting a tire with a sledgehammer than hitting a baseball with a bat. This is a fact. I’ll take the guy whom practices live batting over the guy whom swings the sledgehammer and other things and live the any day.
“is completely false and misleading”
You keep saying that these drills make you strong when nobody has said they don’t!
You need to understand what is being said is the more closely and compounded through the athletic mechanics actual movement chain stress reaction physiological adjustment plus the neural timing sequencing makes this tenet most important to not be neglected.
Oh wait a minute here; I forgot you cannot resistance train “Sport Specifically” using the traditional pitching transition and drive !!!!!!!!!!!! anyway, traditional pitchers better go ahead and train Mono.
“At the very root of it, hitting a tire with a sledgehammer will not be the same as working on your pitching/hitting mechanics.”
What are these differences that we should be aware of?
Does this statement say you believe you cannot use heavy resistance to train “Sport Specifically”
“Nobody has argued otherwise”
You are doing a pretty fair job of claiming falseness and misleadinizm, when the exercise physiology texts plainly call this main tenet out when dealing with competitive sports training and their efficacy and history.
“But to say that it will not help you become a better hitter”
It will help you become a better Batter (you will really look good up there) but not a better hitter that calls for “proprioceptive awareness” that you gain from live timing with your actual implement and Specific swings underloaded! You must remember this is a ballistic activity not a slow powerful activity.
“The strength gained in your grip/wrists/forearms, core, shoulders, etc... will make you a stronger and better fit athlete.”
Only if the time spent doing these lifts is time you are not going to spend doing it “Sport Specifically”
“It's called carryover”
That is proprioceptively inferior to spending the same amount of time doing it correctly.
”As the study posted by Kapuna pointed out, there is a very high relation between grip strength and batted ball velocity, or how hard you can hit a baseball. More strength in those areas equals harder hit balls. Ground balls get through the infield quicker, long fly outs become doubles, etc.”
If the Big Kapuna thinks that gripping the handle white knuckle tighter than is necessary to control the slippage of you hands positions he is wrong! If he would use the proper articulation (wrist axis Unar, Radial, Plantar and Dorsi flexion) then I would give his thoughts more credence. Or maybe he is not making this mistake and it is you again after you told me you understood the difference before. Everybody makes this same mistake when discussing batting also.
Now spend the same amount of time resisting “Sport Specifically” and nothing is lost and there is more to gain.
“The results gained from doing such exercises will help the results on the field, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.”
I’ll take the better results of “Sport Specific” training although if you ever need to snatch on the diamond you will dominate.
“There is no such thing as too strong of hands in baseball”
I’ll take wrist strength over hand strength any day!
“and there is no such thing as too strong of a core. Hitting a tire with a sledgehammer (or whichever non "sport specific" exercise you want) will make you a better athlete, and in turn, perform better on the field”
Yet not as good as if you would have used the same time to train “Sport Specifically”.
“We're not in the business of winning science debates”
Yes, this is evidenced by your being caught unawares as with many concerning the truth about competitive Sport training regimens and there associated tenets.
“we're in the business of winning games and getting players to perform to the best of their abilities”
Yet you have missed this all important exercise physiology main tenet like all the general fitness people you have associated your self with in the past, you are not to blame though, how could you have possibly known otherwise? They were not going to tell you! There is false safety in numbers. Tell a lie enough times and everybody is wearing Jackboots.
“Doing such exercises will get the players to perform far better.”
Only if the comparison is with a lesser-trained twin athlete.
”The carryover effect is real.”
Just not as effective. You might want to call this effect “neuroimbalamusculonexus”
”Which is why you develop programs that entail all facets of strength training”
This approach will have a better affect on field player defense than batters or pitchers. So carry on, 9 out of 9 are in the field. And here I only recommend aggressive field agility training.
“What you are saying is that only certain "new science" exercises should be done”
New, that’s not right and that's just wrong! like I told you before none of this is new just neglected.
Have you read Husners research that has become a main tenet or not? Nothing-new there.
“and they can be beneficial. But when you leave out the bread and butter, you are leaving performance on the table. That is never a good thing”
Who is leaving anything, you do not get it. You believe nothing is done to replace needed strength capabilities by performing the resistance exercises “Spot Specifically”, this time is also being spent building the necessary musculature to perform, there is no loss.
While generalists are squating and jerking the Sport specificators am not just laying on the couch!
“I do, especially when I talk about benching. Strength gained is worthless when you can't apply it because you are injured”
Yet you have not explained the risks of “Olympic lifts and squats” to any of your comments. Would you like me to explain them and the carnage that I have witnessed in there use?
“Olympic lifts are anything but useless in athletics.”
So now it’s athletics? In the Olympics the lifters whom compete have followed the tenet of “Sport Specificity” to the max, why don’t you? There is no Clean and Jerk on the diamond ever.
”Edit- color didn't work, so I just bolded my answers.”
No worries just do it the way everybody else does it.
I was hoping Brett could change the way the automatic small size Quote box came out to a larger font or something?
Bee,
”I am sure you have put in the time studying Marshall's concepts”
This is a gross understatement!
“for the last year and a half I have as well”
OK, this comparison is a gross overstatement!
“ Along with this I have studied the results from his pitchers, particularly those who use his full windup, and the results have not been good.”
Why do I see it the other way around, maybe it’s the Yin an Yan thing?
Let me see, there has been like 6 whom have completed Marshall’s training and full change over 4 have actually made a College teams where they had no chance before and the other one pitched his way well enough to perform at a AA level and did very well getting there after not have pitched competitively in 4 years and the other one hid his full motion into a bastardized version and still made it to through the MiLB circuit where he struck out over 600 then arrived in the MLB where he k’d 41 in 26 innings, Isn’t that a record? Hmmm pretty good job if you ask me!
”I am not a pitcher nor a pitching coach so there is little to no need for me to test out this stuff”
This is a cop out, you have your opinions, and I’ll bet you could do a better job than 90% of them out there. I believe you better prepare for your future family of many boys you are going to have that are going to want to pitch just like Uncle Deemax, you will then have to make a decision on whether to add no tenets, a few tenets, most of the tenets or all of them, this will be difficult for you because you have actually looked into this a little, This problem arises with all my new clients once they realize this stuff works and there kid does not complain about soreness from injurious affect anymore, yet some of them grab the dice still
“yet I am very fascinated by it”
You seem more disparaged by it?
“I do believe that there are certain tenets that Marshall teaches that are beneficial to arm health.”
There you go, you are a pitching coach but I hate generalities, which one’s of the 5 main tenets do you agree with, you have not tested them, this seems like “blind faith”
“However, I am far from buying into the notion that his full delivery will make you a better pitcher”
You can probably stop worrying about it because Marshall is no longer physically teaching it after this summer and I will not recommend it’s use as long as nobody will give them the ball, but we will learn how to perform it fully just for the Specific training advantages it gives you. Last year one of my clients refused to change his full mechanic. I rated him at 920 with the MTS (Marshall Tenet Sum), very high, I asked many times if he wanted to hesitate his drive with a leg lift so he would be assured a spot on the freshman team. He told me if he cannot use the mechanics he wants (or they will allow) he will fall back on Volleyball. This is exactly what happened, they did not even hold scrimmages for the first time at that school. He now can drive a Torque cutter spick smash and a Maxline tailing smash and a crazy Spike Sinker, he said the Marshall training made a much better Volleyball player.
Again how can you make this leap of faith either way, you have not seen it live, performed it nor competed against it. A great time to test it is when you are throwing BP to someone, you will find you can go all day with no injurious effects.
”Maybe you are not following with blind faith, but the mindset of:”
Understand, physical examination and pedagogical immersion then reproduction of a different sports mechanic than the conventional one? Whets so hard about that, nothing Blind or faithful about it.
”I can't think of another term than blind faith.”
It would be “Blind faith” if I had not tested it! This is not the case.
Think of “Blind Faith” as Erik Clapton, Ginger baker, Stevie Winwood and Ric Grech
Instead of mechanical idoctrination?
”If you are predisposed to agree with everything he says”
Testing it meant that I didn’t agree with everything he says!
“you are just a robot IMO”
If you are wrong about me then I am not a Robot to you, then what am I now?
“Do you ever question his teachings/theories when it comes to pitching?”
Absolutely, I did! When he said it was actually OK to throw pies at opposing batters I said who knew? Then tested it, which proved me wrong.
"When did I say anything about being typo intolerant?"
You didn’t I did!
“If I was”
You were!
“I would have to correct a large number of your sentences here???”
This is what you have already been doing, I’m leading the redactpack.
Every time you delete me, you make me look better, are you sure you want to do this?
Why did you completely remove my post and question in the PCR thread, “where’s the W that the author has in there?” Other people answered the question before you deleted me and it looks like some phantom time warp leap with the following answers now?
“If anything it was a joke in the fact that you referred to Marshall as 'He' by mistake (I hope”
I found it as funny that You would, It looks like a subliminal slap in the face just like calling me a Cult member with out saying it?! Same thing.
“I'm also glad you get a chuckle from someone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say”
That’s unrealistic! You have been a protagonist from the start! With out even looking into it physically the negativity has no meaning. You need to quit selling these Wolf tickets!
“When Kharma refers to those who don't buy into the Marshall motion as the 'Earth is flat crowd' I can't help but think of Columbus.”
That’s funny when I think of that statement I think of Copernicus, Kepler then Gallileo coming to mind long after Columbus, I believe Columbus was one of the Earth is flat guy’s and proved no spherical theories by traveling only 1/8 the distance around the world.
“When those who don't buy into Marshall”
I thought You said, I bought into some of the tenets?
Which ones?
“say that it has not been proven this way will make you more successful”
I don't see the proof otherwise.
"Thread bump to ask Kinexus/Dirtberry/Lon again:"
You forgot Stretch, Yardbird and Foams again.
Do you ever question Marshall's teachings/theories when it comes to pitching and/or hitting?
Well, you only included pitching before and I answered you, now you want to know if I question his teachings/theories when it comes to batting? What for I understand them, they are what they are, all mechanics are. I do not look at it the way you apparently do from an adversarial questioning position! Mechanics are not an enemy.
I’ll tell you this, If Marshall’s Pitching materials get going in the MLB all those big loaded power swings are going to keep enabling the strike out ratios to keep rising higher and higher like they have continued to do in the recent past to the point where the Batters are going to have to go over to Marshall’s batting style to be successful again.