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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 12, 2010 6:27:16 GMT -8
cmon brett..not you too..did 43 trokes over 9 holes a day do it? probabaly not..did weightlifting 2 times a day do it..? probably and the golfing "gripping" probably didnt help there was never a problem UNTIL weightlifting,,even last year when he ONLY golfed no pain..so baseball only no pain golf only no pain..bring weightlifting into the picture and pain.. Excuse my question if you have already spoken of it, but why was/is he lifting 2 times a day? cause he's 16..lol..he's in strength training for gym class and then healthclub after golf or school?
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 12, 2010 6:36:03 GMT -8
Well I appreciate this this thrilling argument, however my question hasn't been answered yet; I'm still looking for opinions. Also Wog,,, I'm not blaming you, but did you know your son was lifting as much as he was, if so why would you not stop him. Have a good one all sorry the thread got hijacked on you,,at some point in life you'll realize you can only warn your son about things and that you also cant follow him around in life either..I told him i warned him.he was encouraged last year as he was hitting 83 on the gun and getting some time pitching varsity.the kid like most kids believed weight strength training was gonna give him speed..i'm sure he also got "addicted" to the weightlifting buzz as well.my advice is to not let your high school kid lift..MOST high school kids are not physically mature enough to lift weights and as proven by my son most arent sharp enough to do it correctly..high school weihght lifting for baseball imo wont make you a better player.
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 12, 2010 6:42:27 GMT -8
Hey guys,,, Real quick question. What is a good program routine for my teenage son who pitches and also plays the field. He's not playing right now the season is over. Is there ever a time when a teen should be focused on strength rather than explosiveness? Sorry if these are simple questions. Thanks Gamer, Has your son ever lifted before? In response to Wog saying that he would never allow anyone to lift until they are fully mature all I can say is this: If you don't want your son to lift, then you better get comfortable with him being weaker than his competition. which means what brett? my kid at 135lbs threw faster than 3 senior pitchers that were 4 inches taller and 50lb's hevier and could lift twice as much weight...my kid obviously weaker and smaller yet faster.i know you are a big weight lifting advocate but at this age it isnt the magic,,really any age,,baseball is more than that.thats why theres alexi ramirez's and david epsteins that do just fine
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Post by Brett on Nov 12, 2010 8:20:26 GMT -8
Excuse my question if you have already spoken of it, but why was/is he lifting 2 times a day? cause he's 16..lol..he's in strength training for gym class and then healthclub after golf or school? Wog, I am not telling you how to parent, because lord knows I have not been blessed with children up to this point, but I would never let my kid lift twice a day. I assume that you told him not to but I could be wrong. I just know that I would not allow my son to do it. Did you tell him not to?
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Post by Brett on Nov 12, 2010 8:34:13 GMT -8
which means what brett? my kid at 135lbs threw faster than 3 senior pitchers that were 4 inches taller and 50lb's hevier and could lift twice as much weight...my kid obviously weaker and smaller yet faster.i know you are a big weight lifting advocate but at this age it isnt the magic,,really any age, Wog, I am sorry, but you are flat wrong on this IMO. I think we can agree somewhat in that you need to curb the amount of lifting you do depending on your maturity level, but not lifting/working out will leave you weaker than if you did lift. It sounds like your son is blessed with some natural ability. I am a believer that your ability will only get you so far. You need to develop your mind and body to allow that ability to blossom. Baseball is more than that...but I guarantee that if you don't get in the weight room at some point you will not maximize your abilities. It's funny you should mention 'David Epstein' (I'm sure you meant Eckstein). His older brother is the hitting coach for the Nationals, and was a minor league instructor while I was with them. If you think that Eckstein doesn't get in the weight room, you are sadly mistaken. He works out as hard as any player in the league, and it is a big reason he has played for as long as he has. Don't mistake a big leaguer who is small for someone who does not lift. The same holds true for Dustin Pedroia. These guys maximize their abilities because they work their tails off, and that includes time in the weight room. Its not just the big leagues, either. If little Wog gets the chance to go to play in college, he will no doubt be on a program with the rest of the team. Again, you can keep him from lifting. Just don't be surprised when the competition gets bigger, stronger, and faster as he gets older.
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 12, 2010 8:46:45 GMT -8
cause he's 16..lol..he's in strength training for gym class and then healthclub after golf or school? Wog, I am not telling you how to parent, because lord knows I have not been blessed with children up to this point, but I would never let my kid lift twice a day. I assume that you told him not to but I could be wrong. I just know that I would not allow my son to do it. Did you tell him not to? brett you know i have been anti weight since i saw my other kids growth stop on a dime after weightlifting heavy..i know the kid rotates workouts,,like legs one day chest and arms the next??? one correct statement you made that i hope you never forget is that kids are truly a gift from GOD.hopefully some day you will be blessed with lifes best gift
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 12, 2010 8:48:57 GMT -8
which means what brett? my kid at 135lbs threw faster than 3 senior pitchers that were 4 inches taller and 50lb's hevier and could lift twice as much weight...my kid obviously weaker and smaller yet faster.i know you are a big weight lifting advocate but at this age it isnt the magic,,really any age, Wog, I am sorry, but you are flat wrong on this IMO. I think we can agree somewhat in that you need to curb the amount of lifting you do depending on your maturity level, but not lifting/working out will leave you weaker than if you did lift. It sounds like your son is blessed with some natural ability. I am a believer that your ability will only get you so far. You need to develop your mind and body to allow that ability to blossom. Baseball is more than that...but I guarantee that if you don't get in the weight room at some point you will not maximize your abilities. It's funny you should mention 'David Epstein' (I'm sure you meant Eckstein). His older brother is the hitting coach for the Nationals, and was a minor league instructor while I was with them. If you think that Eckstein doesn't get in the weight room, you are sadly mistaken. He works out as hard as any player in the league, and it is a big reason he has played for as long as he has. Don't mistake a big leaguer who is small for someone who does not lift. The same holds true for Dustin Pedroia. These guys maximize their abilities because they work their tails off, and that includes time in the weight room. Its not just the big leagues, either. If little Wog gets the chance to go to play in college, he will no doubt be on a program with the rest of the team. Again, you can keep him from lifting. Just don't be surprised when the competition gets bigger, stronger, and faster as he gets older. college? the weight lifting craze is happening as sophomores in high school..and thats just too risky
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Post by Brett on Nov 12, 2010 9:24:17 GMT -8
college? the weight lifting craze is happening as sophomores in high school..and thats just too risky That is a poor generalization IMO. If you have a properly supervised program based on a kids maturity it can be very beneficial. The idea that a kid may get hurt lifting and therefore should not is based on ignorance IMO.
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Post by Brett on Nov 12, 2010 9:28:19 GMT -8
brett you know i have been anti weight since i saw my other kids growth stop on a dime after weightlifting heavy..i know the kid rotates workouts,,like legs one day chest and arms the next??? Wog, You said that you would feel comfortable putting together a weight program. Can you give any other details on your son's program?
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 12, 2010 9:37:49 GMT -8
brett you know i have been anti weight since i saw my other kids growth stop on a dime after weightlifting heavy..i know the kid rotates workouts,,like legs one day chest and arms the next??? Wog, You said that you would feel comfortable putting together a weight program. Can you give any other details on your son's program? he lifts at school for strength training class..then he would go to the gym and work the other body parts he didnt work in gym class..if it were up to me he'd never have a dumbell over 15 lbs with 8 to 10 reps 3 sets..nothing slow nothing heavy.
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gamer
Full Member
Posts: 134
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Post by gamer on Nov 12, 2010 12:00:08 GMT -8
He's done some light weight shoulder work, we stay away from over head presses, he does fore arms(one of the most important muscles for ball players in my opinion) he does some, arms some chest(barbells only!) and does some legs. He also puts a big focus on abs and does some back/shoulder work which includes laying face down and raising your arms off the ground(hard for me to explain)
Understandable
Sounds like he's got a good arm. I truely hope he gets better!
Spot on Brett!
Brett how cool that you got a chance to play pro ball, Congrats! Do you recall what you used to do in the weight room when you were a teenager? Also if it's not too much to ask for, what did your professional workouts usually consist of? Thanks
Take it easy everyone and have a goodun'
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Post by Brett on Nov 12, 2010 23:11:19 GMT -8
Brett how cool that you got a chance to play pro ball, Congrats! Do you recall what you used to do in the weight room when you were a teenager? Also if it's not too much to ask for, what did your professional workouts usually consist of? Thanks Gamer, I was fortunate to have a baseball coach who knew his way around the weight room in high school. Between my sophomore and junior year he had me in there 5-6 days a week over the summer. All of a sudden I went from hitting 0 home runs to 9 in my high school season and I was the league MVP. I credit a lot of that to my work in the weight room. The important thing is to learn to lift correctly. If your form is not correct you might as well stay out of the weight room. I would have him get with a trainer if need be to learn the proper lifts, starting with very little weight. Once he gets the form down then you can slowly add weight as he builds strength. More to come later...
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 14, 2010 9:01:18 GMT -8
Wog What makes you think you know anything about weight training? What is the purpose of doing 3 sets? Why not 2? Why not 4? Why do you think there is such an aversion to listening to a former Cy You g Award winning PhD? The strength gains of the 16 year old I worked with on the 120 program were incredible. I just don't get it with fathers today. Kharma kharama..I AM AGAINST weightlifting for high school kids in general PERIOD..these kids arent physically mature enough to weight train..i have watched my other son stop growing on a dime when he started weight lifting,as a junior weighing 175 lbs he would bench 320lbs..FOR WHAT? WHY? what good is going to come from a junior bench pressing that kind of weight? NONE.at thats what happens when kids get together and try to out do each other,NOW maybe in your world you can follow your kid around to gym class ,friend's basements and workout facilities BUT i cant. MY sons baseball coach FINALLY saw my son in the hall with the "brace" on his elbow..do you know the first thing out of his mouth was"when are you going to be able to start lifting weights again" this is a un physically mature junior weighing 140 lbs.,,If i were the coach i would have been more concerned if he was taking hitting lessons this winter or had some cage time reserved..NOW you tell me that I'm wrong here,,its all cool until it happens to your kid.I'm not going to sit here and say weight training isnt beneficial to atletes..BUT in is a much more un neccessary risky bet in high school kids..as far as gamer goes or whoever started this thread..I'm telling you dont let your physically immature kid get "caught up" in weight training..let him use some bands or "springs" and make sure you watch him if you just must.get your kids some lessons from a great instructor and quit worrying about weight training..if your son hits line shots it wont matter how much he curls..get it??
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Post by wogdoggy on Nov 15, 2010 5:49:18 GMT -8
Wog As I've said before, you are one of the good guys of the anti science crowd. You simply don't know what you don't know. We've been pounding you for 5 years about Dr Marshall. Did you even take the time to look at his website? Are you that dumb that you didn't realize that guys like Chris O'Leary,LaFlippo and Jake Patterson are on Dr Marshall's site as much as I am? Didn't you understand how you've been taken by guys like O'Leary who go on ASMI and tell concerned parents to ignore Marshall while teaching Marshall to his own kids? How can you educate your son if you are afraid to educate yourself? Set an example man. I totally understand your 16 year old not listening to you. You chose the easy, earth is flat path. Why shouldn't he? Do you really think Dr Marshall would recommend a 120 day "weight" training program for your son if he thought it would hurt him? This is a guy that does nor want kids to pitch until they are 13 and yet does not mind them "weight" training when they are 9. At this point, you can start working for your grand children. Start by giving your son the correct information. He still won't listen but some day he'll understand that all training must be specific. And he'll thank you for it. You might start by reading this weeks letters from Dr Marshall. I suspect someone watching this thread asked some of the questions. Then you might get up the balls to ask Dr Marshall about your older son. It would be nice if you stopped spreading that nonsense. Kharma kharma nonsense about my older son? is there any reason a junior in high school weighing that much should bench press 315? what for? whats the upside wheres the nonsense.the only thing weightlifting like that will do is get you in a weightlifting magazine. tell me what you know about gripping..will over gripping cause pani on the inside or outside..example gripping a weightlifting bar or gripping a golf club..pain inside or out? he started with a 64lb grip pressure and is up to about 90 ish now.
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Post by Brett on Nov 15, 2010 8:34:50 GMT -8
He's done some light weight shoulder work, we stay away from over head presses, he does fore arms(one of the most important muscles for ball players in my opinion) he does some, arms some chest(barbells only!) and does some legs. He also puts a big focus on abs and does some back/shoulder work which includes laying face down and raising your arms off the ground(hard for me to explain) When you say he does forearms, I'm assuming you mean isolation exercises. When I trained for baseball, I always enjoyed doing these at the end of my workout to really get them burning. Unfortunately, you will not get a lot out of this if you are only isolating the forearms and not working on everything else. Sometimes people don't think about the workout your forearms get simply by holding a bar, be it during a curl, squat, pull-up, or dip. If you are lifting correctly, forearm burnouts at the end of a workout are more for fun and satisfaction than pure isolation. My mantra is that a strong muscle is never something to complain about. What that means is as long as you lift properly, getting stronger does not have to solely be about sport-specific muscles. You may not use your pecs to hit a baseball, but it doesn't hurt to have a strong chest, given that you don't decrease your flexibility. As long as it does not hinder you from performance, being strong is about the whole body, and not just certain body parts. If you focus too much on one area, that is when overuse injuries arise. Where does your son currently train? Is he at a gym? Are you there as well? Who has/is supervising him?
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